If you could offer a level of sincerity or
resistance to God then your "allowing" God to be in control. And so then
your whole theology is " I am not really saying that " but you are
saying that! If God is not free to pre odain whatever comes to pass,
then He has a sliding scale. So that if you are surrendering then your
level of surrender is that which God judges. And if you are anxious,
then your need to surrender increases Gods need to get you to surrender
by some force whether negative or positive. But if God has given not
only salvation, but He has made you able to be saved, then whatever you
give Him is of no worthy process consequentially in the world of
responsible believing. So that whatever you mean to say about yourself
and about God is how you view His absolute rite to do as He pleases. We
mean exactly what we say. But your system is that you believe in
absolute surrender even tho your ability in process to be sincere counts
for something.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: January 29, 2008, 03:51:06 PM
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Yes, and i think we can be quite reactive to
the circumstances and present conditions of our disposition. And then we
are always imagining things that are not as they happened in the past
to the extent that it effected us. And having a matured awareness of
life itself with all of the standards of behavior as we look with the
elder attention to detail, we have a tendency to become over focused in
this general focus of our disposition. So, there is a need to
leave the mindset we use to look at the details, gaining new knowledge
of His word, so that we will be challenged to change these present
desires to be more balanced in the discerning. One of the
problems with growing old is the lack of present desire of a spiritual
kind. Because of the changes physically, there is a tendency to feel
more burdened out of frustration not being able to be as passionate
about a particular situation. And then the other extreme is to lose hope
of any change. The Christian faith is holistic. And the
christian man must feel the effects of these different paradigms whether
they are from a spiritual motive or from a physically pleasure motive.
And we are able to be more feeling in being matured in the faith. We
begin to know how we feel about things and we can have a much deeper
motive in the desire. And this is what a mature christian grows to have.
As we get older and we experience more of the eternal verities , we may
have a withdrawal of these feelings , but this may be an imagined
maturity. We should have a better grasp on the proper spiritual motives. At
some point theres got to be an accumulative effect on the sabbath
experiences. So that the motives are drawn away from the natural ways of
the city of man. And this reality that is transformed in us, is more
real than all of the communication of words. So that we are more aware
of what is transpiring around us in the communication of words. This
holistic paradigm of maturing in our control over our own desires, and
feeling a sense of the other world, is brought on by being in a
heightened state of worship. And when we are drawn higher in experience
we are enlarged in our understanding of these spiritual things. So that
we are renewed to a better understanding of ourselves and these
different societies of men. So does meditation expand our view of the
nature of feeling as to those things that are important, and the regular
enjoyments. So we learn to put to death these little traps of thinking
and feeling with the back drop of this renewed heightened experience.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: January 26, 2008, 03:32:37 PM
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Yes , we have the standard, but we also live
in grace. And if we grow frustrated over not meeting the standards of
the commands and laws, then we only show that we are in great need. And
so, we always want to do good we just cant accomplish doing it according
to His righteous standard. And if we grow frustrated, in our growing
distant we show that we do not understand what was accomplished for us,
which is a sin of not fully coming to trust in Christ complete work. I
would rather mourn a thousand yrs, than get caught up in that semi
pelagian paradigm. So we long to be rid of this body of death, not only
because we have sin, but because we struggle with not wanting to come to
Him and lay every thing out before Him. We on the one hand want to feel
able to over come sin in our own power, and then living with a guilty
disposition. But we should always leave His presence in prayer, with a
deeper longing to experience forgiveness, and a sense of Him speaking
peace to us in the matter at hand.
But even this paradigm can be
self generated. Understanding His forgiveness is understanding Who He
is by considering His attributes, as He is God. When we think about Him
in His omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience, then we will
experience a forgiveness that was not from our doing anything. But it
was His pleasure in Christ to pardon all of our sins at the cross , for
His glory. We look to God who has all power to speak everything that
transpires in our lives. Even when we face the greatest temptations, He
still is the same, yesterday today and forever. He does not treat us as
our sins deserve. And He wants to be praised that for His unfailing
love, His faithfulness, and His forgiveness. We should go from longing
to be forgiven, to being overcome with joy, by His Spirit, who causes us
to rejoice in Him with joy unspeakable and full of Glory.
We have
access to a High Priest who was touched with our infirmities, yet He did
not sin. So that He knows our deepest longings, and He cares about
everything that we go through. He stoops to our level, so that He can
speak to us through His word, and in the present circumstances, giving
us a confidence that is not normal. God who cause all things to work for
His glory will shine into our hearts the light of the eternal glory of
Jesus Christ , so that we will be filled with such longings for heaven,
that we will have no desire to have this earth as our home.
We
should never grow weary of meditating on His goodness and faithfulness.
At some point we will have our hearts enlarged by His grace. And then we
will experience the fountain of the Holy Spirit flowing out of us. And
when we have that grace, we begin to pant after God, the living God. We
must get to the point where we have such longings for the living God,
that we do not feel in need. We can experience a sense of peace that
surpasses all understanding. So that we have an experience of eternity,
knowing that God is near. All the holy angels are there praising God.
His power is like dynamite. We get grace so that we can overcome our
present circumstances. We need nothing else to get us out of the mire.
We only need Him. If we do not have Him then we will grow anxious, and
weary of living. If we experience His distance, then we would be
mourning until He begins to enlarge our hearts, and our desires begin to
overflow. We cant keep from speaking to Him, because we feel so
overcome.
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6729
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: January 24, 2008, 09:42:46 PM
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If
we focus on our believing and our resting then we will be most
miserable. Any time we focus on ourselves we should feel inadequate and
totally depraved. And in believing we have a sense that He is
doing these things in us , to make us like Christ. So that when we look
at Christ we feel our own weight of sin and we know that everything
around us is centered on His glory. The problem is that we struggle so
much with sin and temptation, which takes some of the power away from
the single mindedness and the pleasure of knowing Him.
But God who sees everything brings
about these voices of our own thoughts, our circumstances, for
intense struggles in our hearts to make us more aware of Him being ever
present as in the very movement of the second hand of the clock.
I
really liked the first paragraph, Mbg (the highlighted part especially
speaks volumes). It seems that every act of attempted obedience (though
the wish and intent may be good) either proceeds from, or leads to, the
flesh. (And a lot of times, both!). The second paragraph was good too, however, did you actually mean to say that "God uses our own thoughts, circumstances and
the intense struggles in our hearts to make us aware of His prescence
and how much we need Him?" Just wanted to clarify, as the way you had
put it made it sound a little like you were saying He was the author of
all of these (particularly the thoughts). I really like allusion of the
"movements of the second hand of a clock," however.
The proof that God exist is that we have a thought or idea of God. If
the events in scripture are foretold , then the moral actions that
bring about those events and the actions in the events are decreed as
well.
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6730
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Freedom Of The Will Jonathan Edwards
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on: January 24, 2008, 09:31:47 PM
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And besides, the actions that are done in a
state of Indifference, or that arise immediately out of such a state,
cannot be virtuous, because, by the supposition, they are not determined
by any preceding choice. For if there be preceding choice, then choice
intervenes between the act and the state of Indifference; which is
contrary to the supposition of the act arising immediately out of
Indifference. But those acts which are not determined by preceding
choice, cannot be virtuous or vicious, by Arminian principles, because
they are not determined by the Will. So that neither one way, nor the
other, can any actions be virtuous or vicious, according to those
principles. If the action be determined by a preceding act of choice, it
cannot be virtuous; because the action is not done in a state of
Indifference, nor does immediately arise from such a state; and so is
not done in a state of Liberty, If the action be not determined by a
preceding act of choice, then it cannot be virtuous; because then the
Will is not self-determined in it. So that it is made certain, that
neither Virtue nor Vice can ever find any place in the universe! Moreover,
that it is necessary to a virtuous action that it be performed in a
state of Indifference, under a notion of that being a state of liberty,
is contrary to common sense; as it is a dictate of common sense, that
indifference itself, in many cases, is vicious, and so to a high degree.
As if when I see my neighbour or near friend, and one who has in the
highest degree merited of me, in extreme distress, and ready to perish, I
find an Indifference in my heart with respect to any thing proposed to
be done, which I can easily do, for his relief. So if it should be
proposed to me to blaspheme God, or kill my father, or do numberless
other things, which might be mentioned; the being indifferent, for a
moment, would be highly vicious and vile. And it may be further
observed, that to suppose this Liberty of Indifference is essential to
Virtue and vice, destroys the great difference of degrees of the guilt
of different crimes, and takes away the heinousness of the most
flagitious, horrid iniquities; such as adultery, bestiality, murder,
perjury, blasphemy, &c. For, according to these principles, there is
no harm at all in having the mind in a stale of perfect Indifference
with respect to these crimes; nay, it is absolutely necessary in order
to any Virtue in avoiding them, or Vice in doing them. But for the mind
to be in a state of Indifference with respect to them, is to be next
door to doing them: it is then infinitely near to choosing, and so
committing the fact: for equilibrium is the next step to a degree of
preponderation; and one, even the least degree of preponderation (all
things considered) is choice. And not only so, but for the Will to be in
a state of perfect equilibrium with respect to such crimes, is for the
mind to be in such a state, as to be full as likely to choose them as to
refuse them, to do them as to omit them. And if our minds must be in
such a state, wherein it is as near to choosing as refusing, and wherein
it must of necessity, according to the nature of things, be as likely
to commit them, as to refrain from them; where is the exceeding
heinousness of choosing and committing them? If there be no harm in
often being in such a state, where in the probability of doing and
forbearing are exactly equal, there being an equilibrium, and no more
tendency to one than the other; then, according to the nature and laws
of such a contingence, it may be expected, as an inevitable consequence
of such a disposition of things, that we should choose them as often as
reject them: that it should generally so fall out is necessary, as
equality in the effect is the natural consequence of the equal tendency
of the cause, or of the antecedent state of things from which the effect
arises. Why then should we be so exceedingly to blame, if it does so
fall out?
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: January 24, 2008, 06:57:41 PM
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If we focus on our believing and our resting
then we will be most miserable. Any time we focus on ourselves we should
feel inadequate and totally depraved. And in believing we have a sense
that He is doing these things in us , to make us like Christ. So that
when we look at Christ we feel our own weight of sin and we know that
everything around us is centered on His glory. The problem is that we
struggle so much with sin and temptation, which takes some of the power
away from the single mindedness and the pleasure of knowing Him.
Everything that we experience in our bodies, and outside of us in those
relationships and those trials are directly from His loving hand. There
is no such thing as our percentage and His percentage. But there is an
absoluteness in knowing that He is in control so that our resting will
always be available in the worse inward experience. "He opens His hand
and every creature is fed". "Call upon Me in the day of trouble and I
will deliver you and you will honor me." So that He is creating honor in
us by making us fully aware that He is in an ongoing process of saving
us. Thats why we are always calling upon Him.
When we feel
burdened by temptation and sin in His presence, we sense a weight
keeping us anxious and wavering. If we never felt this way then we could
not feel like we need Him, and so we would not know His voice in this
way. And the only absolute truth is that He is working in us to will and
to do. Because all other determinations made by men about what is going
on inside of us, is their limited definition and falls short of meeting
Gods view of us in the process of healing. No man has ever read one
heart, the motives, the reasons, as to these paradigms of the meta
physical, so that in order for us to be made whole we must have such a
communication from the object of our faith that we are convinced that He
is determined all of these things for our good and for His glory. All
other philosophical speculations will lead to accusations, hurt , and
control in a certain equilibrium effect in a philosophical resignation
with supernaturalism in horizontal relationships . But God who sees
everything brings about these voices of our own thoughts, our
circumstances, for intense struggles in our hearts to make us more
aware of Him being ever present as in the very movement of the second
hand of the clock.
We must have this world view so that we can
convince others. But we do not struggle against flesh and blood, so our
convincing is preparatory only. Because only God can change the heart,
we just give the message. But then, if we are convinced to love it, then
its more than just giving the message. But it is going into the
struggle in prayer as a reflection of the intense struggle with our own
sin that we will experience these struggles and identify with other men,
the society of unbelievers, and the world of religious philosophers.
Even tho there is a general level of security in all of these other
world views that are opposed to the Christian world view, yet men are
never neutral about any detail of thought. There is always love and hate
in a single minded way.
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6735
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: January 23, 2008, 10:20:58 PM
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Was listening to II Samuel today on cd, which
is one of my favorite portions of scripture. It seems that every time
David was confronted with a really big problem or ,even in the case of
his murder and adultery, well, nothing stopped him from worshiping. Even
to the point where he look foolish to others. Since he had a heart
after God, then he was always drawn away to an intense worship.
Usually
in other ot narratives there is a story and then the moral example
whether good or bad, (taking idols). But in the narrative of David, the
bigger the sin the greater was his devotion in worship. He displayed
such great faith in Gods loving kindness so that it was more than just a
religious exercise in sacrificing. But it was with all of his strength.
Being the Psalmist, there was much crying out to God in distress,
pleading the promises, and in victory, shouting for joy, dancing and
times of intense illumination of Gods love to his heart. This is what
made him live above all of the terrible circumstances as a result of his
great sin.
The intense prayer and worship is what God wants more than the sacrifice.
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