What
is so essential to the christian life is that we must taste of the
goodness of God before we can have any hope of having a strong faith. In
worship we experience the effects of regeneration. In regeneration we
are given new life and so we recieve the Holy Spirit, and then we are
filled with all the fulness of God. With the Spirit comes the Son and
with the Son the Father.
So we have fellowship in the spiritual
sense and our faith is exercised as a result of that experience. So we
long for worship not as an exercise of preaching or recieving the word
only. Our initial longings are for God. We long for the Living God. We
pant after God as a dear pants for water.
Sometimes in life we
lose that most central experience of worship and meeting God and so we
lose a sense of who we are. We lose the relish of these spiritual things
and then we begin to lose heart and then we are faithless in much of
our activities. This delima causes us to become desperate as if we were
starving for affection. We become depressed in our dispostion and so we
must take action as to stirring up these longings.
These are dry
times and are so mixed with human doubts and imaginations that there
needs to be deep crys from the heart for the living God. If we do not
ask the question where is my God then we may not understand the
importance of just what His presence does as a gracious provision to
over come sin in our lives. Many believers go through life not
understanding the nature of meeting God in worship. They seldom have
supernatural experiences and so they live in a depressed state without
knowing it.
We must think of meeting God as we do about eating
and drinking. Unless we get a sense of the Fathers affection in worship
we will lose heart and our faith will be very small. If we find
ourselves in this situation we are naturally do pray and plead that we
will again go to Gods house and really meet with Him. We must have Him,
or we will mourn all our lives until meet Him again.
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Forums / Theology Forum / The Bible Driven Church
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on: March 21, 2006, 03:54:16 PM
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Peter
was a fisherman by trade, he made alot of money, yet Christ called
Peter to become a disciple. In calling Peter to be a disciple Christ was
in essence telling Peter that if he defined himself as a fisherman in
business that Peter would be adding Christ to his life and not becoming
Christ disciple. We are not defined by our ocupation, we are defined by
being in Christ, we belong to a new kingdom so that we are just passing
through, this is our calling. We are not business men who attend church
and give, but we are Church members who leave all of the reputation,
money, fame of the world system and worship Christ. The church is not a
building, with its primary focus on the money. A church is the body of
Christ who are poor in this world, who are not measured by its
standards.
Real value in the church is spiritual, exalting
members who are poor in this world. It is the opposite of the world
system where the rich man who builds churches and thinks that is where
the value of the life of the church is who measures dedication in giving
money will end up cheapining the gospel. The truth about discipleship
is that the rich man who enjoy all the fame, friends, and status from
his riches suffered in the after live, and the poor man who was looked
down apoun and suffered in this life went to eternal bliss. That is a
disciple of Christ.
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Forums / Main Forum / Help For Recovering Legalists
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on: March 21, 2006, 03:38:25 PM
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Hubie,
Legalism can come in many forms. There are so many opinions and so many
\"professionals\" that we can get a very narrow view as to what is true
and what is false. Every thing that i have been taught must be exposed
to the word of God and prayer. Then there is the doctrinal systems that
help in finding out what is a philosophy that is what is temporary
counsel, that is what will lead me to change certian behaviour yet leave
me with an exterior change without a heart change.
I think that
legalist are always interested in some kind of philosophy and do not
see the importance of indirect, passive obedience,that is laziness
equals not taking the next step, or lacking wisdom by not doing what the
particular program suggest. Legalist lead the lazy people who are
theologically ignorant. They give us short cuts and temporary solutions,
that make us go down roads that do not allow for great sin, great test,
great faith.
Legalist are never interested in discussing
doctrine, in being examined in the doctrines of their counsel. Legalist
consider this process impractical and theorizing. Legalist help in
solving practical problems but never have a seeking God mentality, a
searching the heart by the word of God, a reading a book about doctrinal
views on the soul of man. When one weeps from depression crying out for
God to show His love and favor a legalist will see that as an emotional
outburst from a physchosis and conclude that it is a waste of time.
When
a person spends days in prayer, in a darkened state, with no answer for
present relief , legalist offer practical solutions as the remedy,
leaving out the fact that prayer will change things and only the
practical remedy will aleviate the pain until God moves through prayer.
Doing nothing except using the means God has given us is more important
than doing the next rite thing. Christ already did the next rite thing.
He wants to become our righteousness and that is a very slow process.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Finding A Theological Calvinistic Church
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on: March 21, 2006, 06:36:26 AM
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Bill, Onetake, Willis, Dilbert- One of the words that is being left out
in this discussion faith is regeneration. Faith is an agency. When one
is regenerated he is given divine light that transformes the mind to
understand spiritual things for the first time. That divine light also
carries a taste of Jesus, a spiritual taste in which a person is given
spiritual sight, touch, hearing,etc. Then we respond to that
understanding by trusting in that light and taste.
Yet not only
is regeneration by the will of God, that is the Holy Spirit, you must be
born again, the wind blows where it pleases, but the faith is a gift of
God also, For by grace are you saved through faith and this is not of
yourselves, that is the whole process of salvation.
Salvations
practical evidences are trinitarian. The Spirit regenerates, the Son
comes with the Spirit, and the Father comes too. Whether a new christian
understands intellectually this process at first is not important, once
a person is regenerated he will have God residing in him in the Holy
Spirits coming.
The evidence of salvation is a person will have a
taste of spiritual things and so he will have a desire for these
things. It will be natural for a person to taste Jesus, that is Christ
will be personal, Christ will be supreme, the person will see Christ,
feel Christ, hear Christ voice, and a person will taste Christ. All with
the new desire given in the Fathers choice.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Does Conviction Of Our (my) Sin Dirve Us To Jesus.
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on: March 19, 2006, 09:01:11 AM
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I
think we drive ourselves away from Jesus. I mean we have a remedy as
believers. We can go 24 hrs a day to confess our sins and plead the
promises. I have found in my own self that i do confess my sin and that i
am a helpless sinner in need of forgiveness. Yet in Psalms 51 there is a
misunderstanding of just seeing the Psalm as totally concentrated on
confession.
There are pleas for more of the Holy Spirit, more joy
so there the psamist is mixing confession with an intense desire to
have a pleasure even tho the sin was grevious. We are not just people
with list as if we were interested in going to the Father to get
forgiveness for forgivenesses sake. You know if you knock on the door
long enough ,that is if you mix confession with please for fellowship
with the Father then there will be a sorta forgeting of self, (which is a
sin in confessing sin), and there will be an abundance of the Holy
Spirit, there that oneness and fellowship with the Father will grow.
With
someone who has little knocking and fellowship confession is a chore a
burden, a real condemnation,an attack by the devil to obstruct
fellowship in prayer. That is why there are long delays in some to go to
the Father, by being duped by the devil. The truth is that confession
is only one aspect of prayer and is also a part of the over all attitude
we should have in prayer, a humble contrition, a bowing before Gods
loving providence, a being over taken in heart felt emotion, being drawn
out into pleasure so that we will actually spend more time in pleasure,
drawn away from sin, by the pleasure, as if love snuffed out other
idols, that is finding the pleasure treasure and not being content with
anything less . Make Zion prosper build up the walls of Jerusleum!.
Here
is Davids over all attitude, here the providence of God was made known
to him in the child of adultery, and yet that intense desire for the
child to live was in David, so that his prayers were fervernt because he
hoped against hope. He had learned the wideness of Gods love and so
here you havePs 51 as a confession of deep significance yet you have
days of pleading the promises for a reversal of the discipline. Wow, now
is it really David trying to change Gods decree or is it God working
through David in prayer in deep fellowship to have pleasure in the mist
of dire circumstances?
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9359
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Forums / Theology Forum / Does Conviction Of Our (my) Sin Dirve Us To Jesus.
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on: March 19, 2006, 08:28:51 AM
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I
think we drive ourselves away from Jesus. I mean we have a remedy as
believers. We can go 24 hrs a day to confess our sins and plead the
promises. I have found in my own self that i do confess my sin and that i
am a helpless sinner in need of forgiveness. Yet in Psalms 51 there is a
misunderstanding of just seeing the Psalm as totally concentrated on
confession.
There are pleas for more of the Holy Spirit, more joy
so there the psamist is mixing confession with an intense desire to
have a pleasure even tho the sin was grevious. We are not just people
with list as if we were interested in going to the Father to get
forgiveness for forgivenesses sake. You know if you knock on the door
long enough ,that is if you mix confession with please for fellowship
with the Father then there will be a sorta forgeting of self, (which is a
sin in confessing sin), and there will be an abundance of the Holy
Spirit, there that oneness and fellowship with the Father will grow.
With
someone who has little knocking and fellowship confession is a chore a
burden, a real condemnation,an attack by the devil to obstruct
fellowship in prayer. That is why there are long delays in some to go to
the Father, by being duped by the devil. The truth is that confession
is only one aspect of prayer and is also a part of the over all attitude
we should have in prayer, a humble contrition, a bowing before Gods
loving providence, a being over taken in heart felt emotion, being drawn
out into pleasure so that we will actually spend more time in pleasure,
drawn away from sin, by the pleasure, as if love snuffed out other
idols, that is finding the pleasure treasure and not being content with
anything less . Make Zion prosper build up the walls of Jerusleum!.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Finding A Theological Calvinistic Church
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on: March 18, 2006, 12:09:09 PM
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I don't believe that everyone should be a Cal.
I have unique fingerprints, like no one elses. I have a unique culture
and world view and my spirit is also unlike any others'. Have you ever
noticed how the Bible teaches that we keep our spirit when Jesus moves
in? I can't find anywhere in the Bible that says that my spirit was
replaced by Jesus' Spirit. It teaches that my spirit was renewed or
reborn. Jesus' Spirit was not renewed. This reborn spirit is a likeness
to Jesus, but not identical to it. I am Jesus' brother, and 2 brothers
have different fingerprints. I take this point a step further and say
that not everyone can be a Cal. Not everyone can be a FWer. My consuming
goal is not to convert people to Cal, but rather to caution against
what so many say about what Cal. teaches, when in fact, many don't know
\"beans\" about it yet claim in vociferous terms that it is wrong. I
wholeheartedly agree that for someone who has studied Cal extensively
and has came to the conclusion that it is wrong, he/she should so state.
But I just don't believe it is morally right for someone to come to the
conclusion that Cal does not teach Christ and Christ crucified unless
they are able to speak in detailed defense of this accusation.
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Forums / Main Forum / Help For Recovering Legalists
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on: March 17, 2006, 08:28:03 AM
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I
agree with you Joe, its really the delima of the story of the prodical
son. If we go to one extreme we will become hedonistic, and if we go to
the other extreme we will get back under the law and become legalistic
and all of this christian life will become a burden.
I think
the point of the story is what is our relationship with the Father? How
do we view God, as Father. Now if we view Him as a hard task master even
tho we are in the house we will develop a spirit of bitterness. If we
view our Father as impersonal we will draw our joys from pleasurses of
the world and live it up so to speak.
It is always about
relationship, and in a sense all of this intellectual challenge is
worthless unless we are changed from the inside and it flows out of us.
The number one question that we are not going to extremes is to ask
what is my cheif desire? What pleases me the most? Is it something other
than my relationship with the Father?
This is all so complicated
and yet so simple. I mean we are in a state of eternal life in our
relationship with the Father, that is we have been regenerated by the
Holy Spirit. We have been given new life, real deep desires for God. And
yet having existing sin we are in a war for subsisting in the reality
of our relationship with the Father. So really our worse enemy is not
any object, or person but it is ourselves, and how we view reality.
We
are to examine ourselves in all of this, and yet we are not to do it as
if the law were our schoolmaster. We are to be joyful, but not as if it
was our working up, we are to be holy but not in our own strength. We
are to love others , but not as the cheif desire or not in an idol way.
So
these things have a life of there own and these lifes are really
powerful in a produced way in all of us in all sorts of ways, past
experiences, social status, depraved prolong lifestyles, or just lessons
designed in a special way by God for our greater usage in the future.
So
then we here many exhortations to obey, and we all have different
proclivities to react in different ways to these exhortations. And yet
we are sorta thrown into different focuses based apoun our proclivities
mixed with just abiding sin.
Yet this is all so simple, i mean
it comes back to what we think about God first and then we view
ourselves through that lense. These physcosis, and troubles we have in
sin fade as we focus on the word and the Fathers love over shadows these
trials, these inward wars, in which that focus sets us free. Once the
Fathers love is experienced then we can begin to be balanced in all of
this.
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Forums / Steve Brown Etc. / Why Men Hate Going To Church
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on: March 15, 2006, 11:51:32 AM
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With a few changes by me, sorry if that offends anyone. 
Perhaps,
the structure of the church as the NT speaks of it presents us with an
opportunity. [Men] can choose to serve in the many important roles they
do have, and thus demonstrate a respect for God and His Word. They can
demonstrate a Christ-like humility that is of value precisely BECAUSE
they are the equals of [wo]men, yet like Christ; do not consider it
something to be grasped.
So are you saying that there is no Biblical basis for the understanding that the elders of the church are to be men? I
agree that there is to be a humble attitude by both genders. I think we
forget who the church is for, who the Head is. It is not about puffing
up either gender, or the abilities of any person.
I
agree with LM to a certian extent, that is in principle. I see
authority structures in the bible as leading by example, preaching only
in applications that apply to leadership the cheif example rather than
making applications that put heavy burdens on the congregation by
grabbing for power that only Christ has, that is absolute power. So in a
sense what the passage in Phil. is that Christ humbled Himself and then
we all including leaders must humble ourselves under His authority and
in doing this the church begins to act in the proper manner. The manner
of the churchs activity as it applies to scripture is the extent of the
authority the church demonstrates. I mean beging with leadership and
focusing on leadership more than congregational responsibilities.
Authority
is not being in a position never to be questioned about something
biblical. The more public the position the more susceptable the person
is to be under scrutiny, must demonstrate humility, and must be
replacable if that authority is violated.
One
thing that is sad about preaching today is that there are few sermons
where the preaching actually scrutinises his own authority and exhorts
in this structure. Some how we really think that only certian persons
are the ones Christ is actively speaking about and yet in the churchs
authority structure Christ authority is the only one that is not
scrutinized, we all submit to that authority in our example including
preaching.
This
will be my last exhortation, and that is if we want marriage to be
vibrant we must place the responsiblity of this kind of message i have
been speaking of as if we were counseling the husband to love his wife.
We must be consistent in the fashion of what Christ authority is by
example in that preaching fashion.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Freedom Of The Will Jonathan Edwards
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on: March 12, 2006, 05:52:56 PM
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"Have you ever been so at peace that you could hear the wisper of
angels? Have you ever experienced the quieting on the inside so that the
thoughts and desires are inraptured in God? Has God ever come like a
mighty rushing wind and raptured you in you desires so that you were so
much filled with a sense of heaven, a mighty confidence, looking into
time in the future of you circumstances hand sensing God releasing you
from that bad circumstance?"
No I can't say I ever have. But if something like that did occur it would scare the bejesus out of me.
But I'm in need of you addressing my questions I posed to you that does tie into this discussion. I'll just paste it down here.
Quoting MBG
"Because
every one has a god. Think about it. God has written His law in your
heart and you have a consicience that speaks to you every time you
disobey that law. Its crying out to you but you make your own god so
that you can do what you want when you want. So really you are making
yourself god."
Ok you think something has been written on
everyones heart. But that is putting something in front of the cart
before the cart is even designed.
1. You need a source to come to your conclusions.
2. what is the source?
3. The Bible?
4. If so why do you think its God's word and worth believing?
5.
And if this conscience speaks out to you, what is its purpose? To
condemn you seems most likely. At least if one follows out the argument
cause your not listening to it. If you could you wouldn't need to be
saved from anything.
Well
the bible is the absolute working power and truth that we need to
function with all of our faculties working as an orchestra. Unless we
have the Spirit , and a taste of these truths in the bible we will live
in a world that is at best either numb, fearful, hateful, dreary,
without hope, just bitter. That is because we are disjointed in the
function of our faculties, mind ,will and emotion ,naturally. The bible
brings us back to pre fall realities, yet not fully,but even better
because we are in Christ, that is we are only spiritually alive by a
relationship with Him. That relationship becomes vibrant when we open
His word to us and let Him communicate not only the concepts to our mind
but the actual taste of His life in us. We have these new desires, that
never really get satisfied until heaven. Thats what it means to be born
again, we go from our state death in Adam to a new eternal life state
in Christ.
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9415
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Forums / Theology Forum / Freedom Of The Will Jonathan Edwards
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on: March 12, 2006, 05:31:16 PM
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MBG
Having just read that last post of yours brings a question to maind. At the end of your post you said:
"But
if the word says that God is X then the concept though not
experiencally understood yet by faith is what God is and no more. That
is how God communicates to us that He is really in reality that very X.
There is no other reality beyond that reality. I think thats my
frustration ML."
You speak of faith, which by definition
has some slight variations, but I guess here you mean trust. Now to
trust in something you can't touch, see, or what have you takes a blind
trust. But you might say it isn't blind because of the Bible. But yet
don't you need blind trust to trust that the Bible is the cornerstone
from which you go forward?
How do you know God is communicating to you that he is indeed X?
The
communication comes through spiritual eyes. Now dont get me wrong here i
agree with ML when i talk about experience. I agree that there is this
spiritual side, we have sight, touch, feel in the spiritual sense. That
does transcend in experience our ability to understand the true nature
of the concept. Never the less the truth is the truth.
How can you
not transcend in experience when you have the Holy Ghost living inside
of us. What does fellowship with the Holy Spirit entail. And not only
that but man is a deep river, i mean, there are layers and layers of
spiritual in us.
Here we are having all of these eternal desires,
these new desires, and so we respond to these new desires that come in
us when we are illuminated by the Spirit, and so we transcend our
understanding in a sense perception.
If i have given you the impression that this is mearly intellectual then i have left out 80 percent of the reason we have faith.
I
think we have a hard time grasping this as a working principle in the
doctrinal churches. There must be some inward change in a working on the
heart that is an experience. There must be a new vision, a new renewal,
a direct effect of these doctrines. What draws me to study, to do the
elbow work? It is understanding these truths and then experiencing the
vitality from the desire aspect. We are thinking beings, who over think
and under feel in the spiritual realm. How can we truly understand God
unless we get a taste of who He is. What kind of religion is cold and
heartless? If God is God then He is God in reality. If there is time, an
it is moving to a final event, then that is Gods purpose, and in that
purpose is the pleasure of Him working these things out in time. If
there were no pleasure in Him working in me then there would be little
faith in believing that He is present.
How can i have a profound
understanding of His soveiregnty if i do not experience that absolute
peace in any circumstance, tho a fight to get. Yet if the peace does not
drop apoun me in infusions and then transcend my circumstance, my
disposition, then that providence is only a concept and not a taste.
Have you ever been so at peace that you could hear the wisper of angels?
Have you ever experienced the quieting on the inside so that the
thoughts and desires are inraptured in God? Has God ever come like a
mighty rushing wind and raptured you in you desires so that you were so
much filled with a sense of heaven, a mighty confidence, looking into
time in the future of you circumstances hand sensing God releasing you
from that bad circumstance? Wow desires, spiritual transcendence,
invisible confidence!
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9417
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Forums / Theology Forum / Freedom Of The Will Jonathan Edwards
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on: March 12, 2006, 04:32:59 PM
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Please try to understand what I say a little harder, because I bleive we can learn from each other. I always have.
For
example I have said that God transcends \"Absolute\". That means he is
beyond, greater than anything we conceive the word \"absolute\" to mean.
You turn around and say I am calling God a limited being.
So either
you don't know what the word \"transcends\" means or you are actually
(and possibly deliberately) interpreting what I am saying to mean it's
opposite!
Which is kind of my point. It is hugely naiive to think we don't do this with scripture.
It is one thing to trust the Bible absolutely but quite another to have interpreted it correctly. Surely you agree with that.
Without the correct interpretation what good ultimately is ones trust in the words?
It is like carrying gold in your pocket and thinking it's silver or vice versa.
So
trust the Bible but don't trust people who tell you they know exactly
what it all means. We probably disagree on this, because you trust
Calvin implicitly. I don't.
And if you don't know exactly what it all means (and you don't) where is your safety net?
In Christ!
He covers that for us and so much more!
Yes this is taught in scripture butr it can be taught orally as well. And was for many many years.
So
if you are saying that scriptural knowledge (and in particular
Calvinist hermaneutics) is a prerequisite for salvation we disagree big
time. Thanks
for the kind response ML. I agree that we need to have a correct
interpretation of scripture. I think that this interpretation world is
kinda different than what you are contexting here. I believe in this
biblical interpretation world there is mans side and Gods side. I mean
must the bible be decoded before we can have an understanding of the
text. I do not believe that this is the exact method of looking at
interpretation. God has given us His Spirit, and He decodes the text
little by little. We can know greek , hebrew, hurmanitics, and have a
thorough knowlege of history and still have blindness as to how we view
ourselves and how we view God. The Spirit is the main teacher in any
bible study, then what we believe will not be an imagination of our own
making as to the truth of who is who.
Granted we can mis apply many
biblical concepts so we need teachers and we need a knowlege of history
so we can know who we are and who God is. This is all so complicated in
todays world with all of the different teachings. There is so much to
know and it can never be exhausted. Even the power of the scripture has a
renewal power that cannot be exhausted. The words of scripture are
spiritual light, that infuses power in meditation. The text is full of
wisdom, and brings out a truth that can be look on in a prisim, it has
so many angles and these multi gleanings transcend the wisdom of the
world. The wisdom of the world is singular truth. It has no
understanding of the nature of spiritual truth. It seeks to even deny
metaphysics and the study of the spiritual side of man. The worlds
wisdom is shallow , and fleeting. It does not satisfy, it is depressing.
The wisdom of God gives life the wisdom of the world gives death.
Now
this other interpretation world that i want to describe is a worldview
of contridicting concepts. We have been give language by God and it
seems that when we try to transcend language we limit our ability to be
view God through these language concepts consistentaly. Is all , all? Is
eternal, eternal?, is soveriegn, soveriegn? Is absolute ,absolute? It
seems to me that if we try to go beyond these concepts that we nulify
these concepts, and contadict the concepts. If we say transcends does
any thing tanscend, transcend? I like talking about theology, and that
God is X. But if the word says that God is X then the concept though not
experiencally understood yet by faith is what God is and no more. That
is how God communicates to us that He is really in reality that very X.
There is no other reality beyond that reality. I think thats my
frustration ML.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Freedom Of The Will Jonathan Edwards
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on: March 12, 2006, 08:07:44 AM
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Scripture is the mediumSee
we disagree here also, Scripture is the spoken word of God that gives
new life to man. Scripture is not a hidden revelation, but is fully
revealed as a saving knowlege. It is the revealing of God. Every word is
that revelation of God. It contains all that we need to know about life
and Godliness. It has absolute authority because its character is
absolute and its saving ability is absolute.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Freedom Of The Will Jonathan Edwards
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on: March 11, 2006, 05:50:32 PM
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Big guy.
I
used to think this subject was worth something but I would like to ask
you what your hope is in tackling this thing. What purpose would or does
it serve to you and what do you hope to gain? In the big picture of
things.
And not trying to be inflamatory but I want to ask you
why you like to speak about your god like you do. You can have no idea
as to what limits or lack of this god you speak of or can you? And what
does it matter. You either believe or you don't. its not about my god is
bigger and better then your so mine must be the real one, but yet as I
read your thoughts and also others thats what I hear. It comes across as
being real insecure.
Thanks , but who do you think God is?
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Forums / Theology Forum / Freedom Of The Will Jonathan Edwards
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on: March 11, 2006, 05:29:38 PM
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Do you feel that Calvinism absolutely explains all that is contained in scripture leading to an absolute apprehension of God?
No,
but i think Calvinism starts with a God that is absolute, it is a
system that is Pauline, that is it alows God to be the God of absolute
will, power, control, love, etc. Do i think Calvinist experience the
absoluteness of God, absolutely not.
With the revelation we have been given that intales mystery , what makes you think that God is not absolute as a being?
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9429
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Forums / Theology Forum / Freedom Of The Will Jonathan Edwards
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on: March 11, 2006, 04:41:50 PM
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We are highly conditioned beings which develop tendencies towards certain types of thought, emotion, preference and action etc.
In
addition to this, "desires" are not fixed; they can be easily
manipulated. Hell, advertisers and marketeers get paid big bucks to do
this. You can appeal to any level of Mazlow's pyramid of wants and
needs: Physiological, safety, love, esteem, and "self-actualization"
(whatever the hell that means). So that we desire things we shouldn't
and don't desire the things we should doesn't affect the argument. The
Gospel itself is God's initiative and contains the seeds to turn our
desires towards Him.
I
agree with you, i mean there are reasons we desire things that others
do not desire ,you know we have our likes and dislikes, and these go
into desire, that whole rational process and the experience we have had
in our lives. Yet the reality is even tho we have these likes and
dislikes we still follow our greatest desire and it is our choice.
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9431
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Forums / Theology Forum / Freedom Of The Will Jonathan Edwards
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on: March 11, 2006, 04:20:54 PM
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God can not not be absolute in His knowlege or He would not be God.
This is the big problem with much of what passes for theology.
If God is not X then he is not God. (!)
It leads people to bad theology.
It's fine and in some cases useful to say that God has absolute knowledge but that really doesn't say much.
Knowledge is bound and conditioned. Even "Absolute" knowledge.
Knowledge and the very concept of Absolute is our limitation and designation. Not God's.
If
you trace every step back to when you were born and you lined them up
in a long line when did you ever choose something that you did not
desire
This is very similar to the 2nd Noble Truth in Buddhism which the Buddha preached around 400 BC.
And it's on the money actually. But to leave it at that is incomplete.
The
word desire is actually a limitation. What motivations and impulses
does the word desire include and leave out? And what is it we desire
for?
This has probably been speled out in your Edwards material but as you know I have not read it.
Is our enslavement to it absolute or is it due to ignorance?
Scripture does appear
to suggest, and Calvinism states outright, that we are utterly
incapable of altruism, goodness, selflessness and virtue. The main
basis for this being the authority of scripture and its message that
Gods Holiness is so infinite that even our best moments are turds.
I
would suggest that while it serves a purpose to take this at face value
up to a point, that we also see teachings like this as a way of waking
us up to our condition rather than a hard lined philosophical
proposition. On one hand its true but on another it invites more
problems than it solves and ends up, through a suspicious combination of
scripture and logical deduction to paint a limited, limiting and by
therefore by definition wrong view of God.
There is another post you made which is great but I do not have time to respond to it now.
I will soon though.
Love MArk
Is our enslavement to it absolute or is it due to ignorance? What
God has revealed is absolute, and what He has not revealed is absolute.
So yes the problem is with our understanding. But what He has revealed
comes with a spiritual understanding that we do not have naturally in
sin.
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9435
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Forums / Prayer Requests / Mean Streaks And Us
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on: March 11, 2006, 09:29:55 AM
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I hope that we can have civil discussions on
some very deep issues here. I refuse to accuse or label any one
personally. I think my labels have been more of defining what a certian
system is. I am glad that we have been honest about how many points in
the 5 that we are in agreement. I hope that through discussions we can
come to a compromise about labeling an individual in a personal way.
Lets just use catagories for the sake of discussion. Or if the person
has acknowleged what his beliefs are in a certian theological camp. Lets
be sensitive when we have hurt someone. Sorry LM. I was a little over
board we need you.,
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