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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Why was there if they did not.
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on: August 24, 2008, 04:09:07 PM
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Prior
to the fall man had a moral ability. He was able to keep the law of God
in order for his acceptance. Thats why it says in Gal, that those who
live by the law will die by the law. So the law was the standard for
mans being qualified to share in the relationship with God in the
garden. Man was always under that obligation to keep the whole law.
There was a tension as if it was a test to see if man could continue to
keep the righteous standard of Gods requirements in order to obtain
eternal life by upholding the standard and continuing in his obedience.
When the serpent came on the seen man was fully able to resist that
temptation by the power of his will in order to pass that test and
fulfill his obligations. But man chose to have a knowledge of evil and
being under the bondage of evil. The temptation was not wrong, that is
having a new knowledge of evil. But being overtaken by the evil in that
knowledge was not the design that man was intended to fall into.
If
man would have not eaten of the tree, then he would have been able to
enjoy the tree of life as being righteous without the ability to sin.
But when man gave into the temptation then he became corrupted in all of
his parts and died spiritually. And in his new view of himself after
his corruption man was self conscious under a new power. He was under
the power of guilt ,shame and fear as a result of falling under the
power of sin. Instead of seeking God out, man was thought for the first
time that he could hide from God. Man was darkened in his understanding
and now thought that he could live by the law. Man tried to live by the
law apart from Gods forgiveness. Man became self righteous. He was so
blinded by sin that he actually thought that he could and did fulfill
the requirements of the law by his own works in making his own garments.
This
is the state of man in his blindness. He really believes that he can be
righteous by keeping the law. But God says that the law only has one
function for man since man no longer has the moral ability to do moral
good. The law only shows man his sin. The law works death in man. The
law is made to show man his sin by awakening his conscience to its
requirements condemning him by the conscience voice of condemnation. The
law an the conscience bring sin to be alive. Since man really believes
that he is good, the law and its requirements bring man to understand
that he is not good.
Man tries to feel sorrow for breaking the
law, but the law only makes man feel as if his apologies are useless.
The law and the conscience work to keep man from seeking forgiveness by
grace. Because man is dead in sins and trespasses, then man cannot
obtain grace in order to be able to meet the requirements of the law.
Man only wants to keep the law by doing something to meet the
requirements and then having a view of himself that he is able in
himself to receive the good graces of others and of his god by doing the
requirement or something to reconcile himself that he made up for
breaking it.The more he tries to obey the law the more he must quiet his
conscience since the conscience can only be quieted by grace and not by
works.
Man is always trying to get into Gods good graces by this
work. This work apart from the Spirit of God is the cause of all false
religions in the world. Man obtaining righteousness by his own way in
his own time. Man cannot obtain real righteousness apart from the saving
work of Christ. So that the more self righteous man tries to live by
the more he is obnoxious to the work of Christ. If you live by the law
you will die by the law.
Thats why man must turn to Christ, or be
regenerated and made righteous by grace through faith. The only way man
can enjoy true freedom is apart from the works of the law. Christ has
come and has made man completely righteous by imputing His righteousness
to mans account. There is no work by the law that is good enough to
obtain this righteousness. This righteousness is imputed once for all.
It is not given out over time, it is not according to each work of man,
it is not making man righteous in himself, it does not give man the
ability to obey the law. It is only by grace through faith.
Shabbat shalom, mybigGod. Sorry,
but that's just not true. That's dispensational talk, but that's not
the Bible. No one has EVER been accepted by God by keeping the Torah
(the Law). As Paul said, the Torah is a schoolteacher to teach that NO
ONE can keep the Law! ALL human beings have always and only been
accepted by God (1) through grace, (2) by faith, (3) with blood! That
was true with "OT" saints and with "NT" saints, too! The only difference
is that, before haMashiach died for our sins, they looked FORWARD to
THE Sacrifice with figures of animal sacrifices, while those of us who
exist after THE Sacrifice, can look BACKWARD to Him. For proof, all one
has to do is read Psalms 84, 85 and 86. Retrobyter
Yes
man was fully able to keep the law in a judicial sense prior to the
fall. If man had any favor of God, then there would be no reason to be
punished for sin. If you believe there was a covenant of works, then
Gods covenant with man would not have demanded full responsiblity from
man, if man received any thing favorable from God. Mixing the covenant
of the works and the covenant of grace is in my book a heresy. Man
had to receive the just consequences of his rebellion by being fully
responsible to obey the law. Otherwise Christ perfect obedience to the
law is not fully able to complete man being made righteous. Adam was the
first man and failed to keep the law, but Christ the second man was the
only real man to keep all of the law. Now the covenant of grace is all
there is to make us righteous. We can no longer come to God by the law.
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6111
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: August 23, 2008, 09:19:21 AM
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This sounds like emergent. The pastor is more
interested in the process than historical truth. So that he is trying to
find the balance between everyones belief system. So if you have a
conviction about what should be said, then that is one view. The purpose
is to get people to agree rather than the historical way of teaching
and encouraging. It can be frustrating , especially if you hold some
very deep convictions.
I agree, this is a waste of time. If the truth
is from someones personal feelings and experience, then the revelation
of the hidden personal problem is more important than the historical
teaching. So if you try to share you convictions as historically
accurate you may be labeled divisive. My personal experience in this is
that there is a tendency to turn toward labeling people, applying rules
or overstepping the boundaries of relationship to limit personal
freedoms. Wards of the state, or politically structured church
discipline.(edelweiss, edelweiss', bless my home land forever,)
When
you get a bunch of wayward sheep together along with the wolves and you
start talking about other things that are not indirect in a biblical
sense, then the inevitable direction will be to set up your own rules or
system that determines the behavior. Once a person learns to view life
this way, then they get really legalistic, and forceful. To me this is
teaching people to look at others sins without seeing your own sins in
light of others. The point and the counter point of self and
circumstance is to be argued from the law of non -contradiction. This is
very weird. I would distance myself from this for the sake of my own
sanity.
Why arent people upset about the political debates going
on inside the walls of the church? Cause they have been taught through
this discipline a sorta fascism.
In theater we have this
imaginary wall between the stage and the people in the seats. This wall
is seldom broken. And in a sense what goes on in the preaching and
teaching of the church is the same kind of process. Theater is strictly
acting a part, where in the church you have the unseen work of the
Spirit on a man, who is using these supernatural words and convictions
that go to the hearts of the people and work to bring them to the glory
of Christ. So that just like going to the theater and being a passive
recipient on the feelings , the church does this on the inside of a
person to heal them supernaturally without breaking the wall of personal
communication toward one person. But the emergent has been an attempt
to break the wall, so that man and the state become the agents for
change and the congregation becomes active rather than the word and the
Spirit.
There are these powerful supernatural paradigms that are
new ways of viewing the world that come in the light of all of the law
of God. And we are not dealing with a moral fight in a direct way.
Within the natural disposition of a sinner is not only the inability to
come to unity or having a society of viewing alternative reasons for new
discoveries of connection rather than processing a moral rule in
connection. These new discoveries come indirectly through a point and
time deliverance, or looking for the miracle, that new discovery, beyond
the human understanding. This is a learned world view of deepening the
understanding of the limits of the power of self within the unified
understanding of the definition of connection. For we share in the unity
of that discovery through supernaturalism rather than by the means of
self discovery through the agency of a principled disciplined
procession.
The rules of communication are different. Since what we
confess is the truth of what we do. Our identity is individualist, by
the reception of individual confessions of truth as the understanding of
the reality of who we are in light of what we do. We know the way of
truth to be the way of deliverance in a prior example of remembering the
art of coming to a new way of transformation through being converted by
the confession of the truth rather than the self discovery through the
process of self disclosure. These powers are the limits of human
security since individualism comes through the process of having these
effects of growing through the reception of these passive pre
dispositions in the set of new discovered desires that convert our
understanding to a new world view in order for us to be at liberty in
connection. Our disposition is the only example of what the truth is in
connection as having a converted cohesion of being of one mind.
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6112
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Comfort and Peace
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on: August 22, 2008, 03:32:17 PM
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Pete, thanks for the honesty. I am always
praying for you. And i am most like minded with you from my point of
view. But i guess, if we just put our pain in His hands then the moment
passes to His glory, and the rewards are greater on the other side. Man,
that pain is cursed. The only true spiritual outlet is knowing that one
day this life will count for Him cause He designed it to be the reason
that we are going to meet Him and not going to suffer for eternity. But
every minute that passes is a reminder that all of this is going to be
turned into unbelievable bliss and joy. And if you have the chance to be
in a position to curse the pain and the world by being reminded of how
awful this life is, then your blessed that you are so close to wanting
that other life more. Its better to have less feeling of the pain, but
its also worse to be able to ignore the other lesser pains with other
things like most people do, especially me. But if by chance i morn over
my sin, then the pain is what makes me long for heaven. Its just that i
look to you as the more able one. You are an encouragement to me more
than any one else even tho you dont see yourself being that good. I am
sorry if i say for the sake of seeming to pressure you that someone
would look up to you, but i look up to you bro.
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6113
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Denomination are you?
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on: August 21, 2008, 04:52:14 PM
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Tom (MBG),
That
was a great post. For me, baptism was very meaningful, because it did
signify the change that was going on in my life. I had trusted Christ a
couple weeks prior, and God was already working in my life in some very
tangible ways. His forgiveness and grace was so real!
You are
right that God's work in our lives is not finished at the time we first
come to know Christ, but as you described is a process. We grow in grace
and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ. We are to be transformed by the
renewing of our minds. It is living in this relationship with Christ,
abiding in Him as a branch in the vine, that allows us to bear spiritual
fruit acceptable to Him.
Bill
Yes,
its always good to read your post, Bill. We should be thankful that we
have the Lord of the universe promising to listen to our prayers. And we
have been shown that He is good even when we struggle with a trial or
sin, that seems to bring us down and cause us to walk with the weight of
all of the inward griefs. But He has given us His word and promised to
speak to us in His language. We have been justified by faith, fully made
righteous by His work, and we are enabled to walk in His love for the
rest of our days, that is having a taste of His goodness, or His
sincerity in answering our every failure. He sincerely loves us in
reminding us as He meets us in every disabled learned disposition of
doubt. And even tho we feel disconnected in this world, where people
have departed from listening to Him, yet we know that we are not left to
experience the same temptations to be hard toward Him. We have been
given Christ, in such a personal way, that we know the place of being
sincere to Him. And since He does not judge us as if we are questioning
His being our present help in time of need, then our desire to be
sincere to Him, is only as we are being enabled to understand His
greatest understanding of our weakness that we know this connection to
be the only real sincere place ,where our weakness is lost in His love.
We grow weak in order to experience His strength, and when we have found
that place of rest, then we are aware that He is all we need.
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6114
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Freedom Of The Will Jonathan Edwards
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on: August 21, 2008, 04:11:08 PM
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So...according
to Jonathan Edwards, without freedom of will there can be no
culpability or judgment for sin? If you ask someone to do something that
they are incapable of doing then logically it is not a fair request.
They have to be able to comply for a command to be judged. You can still
be guilty of doing wrong but without freewill of action no judgment
would be possible
Thor
Edwards is not saying that
there is no personal responsibility in personal sins. He is saying that
because there is a connection between the cause, or desire , that is the
mind choosing for itself what it is most pleased with, that the
condition of the soul being in bondage to sin does not take away from
the choice but rather makes the person the cause of his choices. If
there is a free choice as you define it, then your definition of having
no pre dispostion to choose one way or another does not allow for all
the connections in relation to the choice and so having no antecedent in
connecting the cause to the choice then there is no consequence. If
there is no consequence then there is no responsible choice or no reason
for there to be a consequence. So if your definition of free
will is equilibrium choosing, then your not going to understand the
importance of causes (virtue and vice )and means. Since every usage of
the means is an antecedent to the effect as a consequence. It would be
the same as doing an action with the body parts as an antecedent to
whatever the direction goes to as the consequence. If there is no
connection to the cause of choosing then there is no consequence and
there fore there is no reason in choosing.
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6115
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Christian Doctrine: Augustine (345-430)
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on: August 20, 2008, 07:55:13 PM
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Chap. 28.—How we are to decide whom to aid 29.
Further, all men are to be loved equally. But since you cannot do good
to all, you are to pay special regard to those who, by the accidents of
time, or place, or circumstance, are brought into closer connection with
you. For, suppose that you had a great deal of some commodity, and felt
bound to give it away to somebody who had none, and that it could not
be given to more than one person; if two persons presented themselves,
neither of whom had either from need or relationship a greater claim
upon you than the other, you could do nothing fairer than choose by lot
to which you would give what could not be given to both. Just so among
men: since you cannot consult for the good of them all, you must take
the matter as decided for you by a sort of lot, according as each man
happens for the time being to be more closely connected with you. Chap. 29.—We are to desire and endeavour that all men may love God 30.
Now of all who can with us enjoy God, we love partly those to whom we
render services, partly those who render services to us, partly those
who both help us in our need and in turn are helped by us, partly those
upon whom we confer no advantage and from whom we look for none. We
ought to desire, however, that they should all join with us in loving
God, and all the assistance that we either give them or accept from them
should tend to that one end. For in the theatres, dens of iniquity
though they be, if a man is fond of a particular actor, and enjoys his
art as a great or even as the very greatest good, he is fond of all who
join with him in admiration of his favourite, not for their own sakes,
but for the sake of him whom they admire in common; and the more fervent
he is in his admiration, the more he works in every way he can to
secure new admirers for him, and the more anxious he becomes to show him
to others; and if he find any one comparatively indifferent, he does
all he can to excite his interest by urging his favorite's merits: if,
however, he meet with any one who opposes him, he is exceedingly
displeased by such a man's contempt of his favourite, and strives in
every way he can to remove it. Now, if this be so, what does it become
us to do who live in the fellowship of the love of God, the enjoyment of
whom is true happiness of life, to whom all who love Him owe both their
own existence and the love they bear Him, concerning whom we have no
fear that any one who comes to know Him will be disappointed in Him, and
who desires our love, not for any gain to Himself, but that those who
love Him may obtain an eternal reward, even Himself whom they love? And
hence it is that we love even our enemies. For we do not fear them,
seeing they cannot take away from us what we love; but we pity them
rather, because the more they hate us the more are they separated from
Him whom we love. For if they would turn to Him, they must of necessity
love Him as the supreme good, and love us too as partakers with them in
so great a blessing.
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Denomination are you?
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on: August 20, 2008, 07:16:43 PM
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A baptismal thread would be interesting, as long as we could begin with the premise that it is not necessary for salvation.
Since
baptism is symbolic of our identification with Christ's death and
ressurection, it would seem that immersion would be the most vivid
representation of this (lowering the candidate into the water
symbolizing his death and rasing one out of the water symbolizing his
ressurection).
Also, I never have understood infant baptism. NT
baptism always seemed to come after (often immediately after) a person
trusting in Christ. I am all for dedicating a baby/child to the Lord,
both from the parents perspective and the church's as well. But this
should not take the place of believer's baptism, IMO.
Also believer's baptism is a great testimony to the family/friends of the new believer, a testimony by ceremony so to speak.
Bill
Bill,
I think one of the problems of being involved with these different
kinds of physical dedications is that it is not necessarily a reflection
of what is going on in the heart of a person. And although these things
are important at the moment of time that it happens, yet salvation is
mostly a focus of the transformation that is going on in an everyday
paradigm. The thief on the cross > although the chances are small in
the sense of normal means , yet it speaks of the causes. Its just like
being a spiritual infant in sanctification and pointing back to when we
were saved that defines who we presently are in Christ, rather than
having a testimony of our growth by being transformed. What follows our
growth is the amount of fresh understanding we have by that growth and
all of the present causes of the use of the means the encourage others
to grow in Him. So that our loving Jesus is a fresh love not lukewarm.
Then our speech will be seasoned with salt, or we will have the
encouragement of the Spirit to cause others to rejoice in Him with joy
unspeakable and full of glory. Not only will it go from our lips but it
will show itself in our writing as well." My heart have You pierced."
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: August 17, 2008, 06:12:59 PM
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We use a very small part of our brain. Which
is why there is reason to believe that we were very intelligent in the
pre fall paradigm of thinking. So that in a sense we all are starting
from this fallen inclination to underachieve.
Could it be that
since we are very limited in our thinking ability that there is some
kind of damage in certain areas of the brain that is undetectable ? Or
could it be a spiritually dead conscious activity in the inter
communication to the physical brain?
For certain we know that the
connections of activity of the flow of information to the areas of the
brain have some natural qualities and some self programing involved.
If
there is a connection to the faculties in the communication of the
nature of the Spirit as a cause, that being the will is determined by
the desires, which involves an understanding of truth in the mind, then
there also is a physical cause in a process as to all the connections of
the brain that naturally work to bring about the end of a man working
these logical sequences in learning. But is it because there are areas
that are less enabled so that it brings in other avenues of information
to balance out that weakness or do men determine to exercise their own
weakness as the primary reason for and increase knowledge? Or could it
be that the circumstances one faces create the heroism to achieve beyond
the limits of ones natural abilities?
We know that unless there
is a work of the Spirit, then all attempts to resist by willing will be
of no avail. Since the will cannot produce as the cause the connection
to gain knowledge, but knowledge is prior to the activity of willing.
And that new knowledge is according to is nature. And our knowledge of
evil is from our first parents as having a power to work in us prior to
our working. So that evil is prior to a physical defective action. It is
an evil imagination, or a thought that comes to the point of having an
evil action. In this sense the inclination to do anything is naturally
different in each one of us. But we know that it is impossible for us to
not on sin this side of heaven, since we still have a nature of evil.
So that how we understand ability may have a direct effect on how we
process knowledge and how much knowledge we are able to acquire and
keep. Since what we do not agree on, we are made aware by the work of
God as He teaches us through His Spirit.
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6119
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6129
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Always Seeing, Never Perceiving
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on: August 10, 2008, 08:50:43 PM
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All pain in the "ultimate sense" is brought
on by God?
Tuggs
thanks for responding. I do not think anything surprises God. Since God
knows the end from the beginning. Or, every event in history along with
mans choices ,past , present, future , are present in Gods sight. In
fact God is not even surprised by man choosing to sin. And if God is all
knowing then He doesnt just know about something. But God knows every
personal detail there is to know. He knows every cursed molecule. If
He knows our thoughts before we think them, then He knows our pain by
those thoughts. And if there is a means for us to be in the pain, that
is, all circumstances that are connected whether they are habits,
people, or circumstances beyond our control, then all of these
connections have a consequence in our being in pain. And since Christ
has taken our sin, the consequences of our sin, and the pain of our sin
on Himself at the cross, then by that work on our behalf, He is an
advocate , not only forgiving our sin, but carrying our burdens and
working on our behalf to stand as our confidence to work out our pain
for His glory and for our good. But for those who stand outside of His
favor, then they stand in their own sins and the consequences of these
sins, since they do not have the means to effect the consequences of
their sin and judgment. So that by this we stand in His favor in every
detail of our lives. "There is now no condemnation to those who are in
Christ Jesus."
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6131
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Always Seeing, Never Perceiving
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on: August 10, 2008, 02:17:22 PM
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All pain in the ultimate sense is brought on
by God. The righteous man concludes that they did this for evil but You
turned it for good. And this is how we are brought to understand our
connection to having the means of our faith at that which has determined
to bring about the consequences in us as we deal with sovereignly
ordered pain. Since Gods design in pain is to encourage and strengthen
by the means of grace then our position as sinners who are justified by
grace is of no condemnation , even in our foolishness to giving into sin
under the stress of the pain. If we have no hope then we will never
understand that this temptation under pain has no escape. But since we
do not entertain scorn or under the obligation to make the pain go away
by something we do, we are not in the role of condemnation.
So
that the only scorn we deal with are those who have not been forgiven by
grace, and those who do not understand the nature of grace. Since we
are encouraged to take all of our burdens and pour out our hearts to our
loving Father, then the resistance to scorn that we experience is
toward those who are under the burden of a hope that has been deferred.
And since we do not desire that any one should go through the pain that
we experience, seeing that was the attitude of the Apostle, then we are
only under the protection of Gods design in order to have a refuge that
is without accusations.
Since we do not fight against flesh and
blood , the scorn we experience is from the great Accuser. Our faith is
in resting in His protection, since He has turned all of our troubles
for our good and His glory. And our resisting scorn is part of our
believing that He has our best interest in the temptation. Because we
are reminded that when we experience pain we are going to confront the
scorn of rejection of others. If we were able to resist temptation on
our own, then we would never be accused of trusting in Him, or feeling
all alone in resting in Him in scornful derision of His sovereign plan.
And since He has promised to comfort us, then we can lay out our pain to
Him, and come as those who have no independent resistance in the
matter. And since we can lean on His all powerful love for His children
then we know that His voice will not be an accusatory voice.
He
promises that if we come to Him and lay the scorn of others to His care,
that He will take that burden and bring us out of all of our troubles.
Since we are so hardened by the trials and the troubles that we
experience in this life. Then our own pain causes us to build up a heart
that is withdrawn and burdened above that which we can handle. So that
when we know how to pray to Him, we are able to experience releasing the
trial and the pain to Him since He hears our cries. When He hears our
cries, then He is not silent in His active response. Since He has
promised to work through our prayers, then the pain and the scorn that
we experience are the ways in which He shows us that He loves us in His
hearing and acting. When He delivers us, then He reminds us of His
faithfulness, and we know that scorn is of the wicked.
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6132
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Always Seeing, Never Perceiving
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on: August 10, 2008, 10:24:43 AM
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It is only as we are made conformable to HIS DEATH will we know the power of his resurection.
Geralduke, Since you've gone and ressurected a long-dead post, I only find it fitting to ask just how do you suppose we are made conformable to His death?
Well. First the foundation. Paul who no man can say he did not live for Christ suffer for Christ and eventualy die for Christ was not totally commited. Yet he himself said "that I might be made conformable unto his death" Thus that is enough for any man to know that there depths of Christian expereince the church in the main has not touched yet. Moreovr
He said that "I might know the power of his resurection"Yet this is a
man who was left for dead after a stoning who was raised up again and so
on. and if any man knew the power of hsi resurection he did., yet here to he knew there was more. Thus this too is enough to say that thier are hights to which the church is largely ignorant of. and in very truth it has to be said you cannot know the power of a resurection if your not dead! Moreover
in Ephesians he prayed for christians that the "eyes of their
understanding may be opened that they might comprehend with al the
saints what is the exceedign greatness of His power that is towards them
who believe....." So the foundation laid and accepted. For if it is not then 'you' will not be able to build anything in understanding. Not that I am saying I know much. But I do know a little. That the samaratan had to be counted unclean to help the wounded and possibly dying traveler. For that is why the religios leaders refused to be a good neighbour. For to touch the dead led to beign counted unclean for 7 days by the law. So then Paul was considered "the offscouring of the earh" That the Lord had to leave the bosom of His father and "he who knew no sin became sin" I dont know how 'deep' death is. But how ever deep it is Jesus plumbed it. Moreover then was raised from the dead and to sit on the right hand side of the FATHER. Jesus said "...............I................will build MY church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" Im not yet sure what that all means. What I do know is that the very gates of hell will tremble and fall to the BRIDE. I dont know as yet what THAT all means either. Yet I know it is true. For "paul I know and jesus I know but who are you"? said the demons. The church has yet to know the depths hights and breadth of this so "GREAT a salvation" If
the church is to fullfill that for which she was aprehended for then
she must get off her high and mighty horse and be considerd fools for
Christ sake not fools. Wise in Gods eyes but foolish in the worlds. Not "mere men " even but sons of God. to take up our cross daily means to be crucyfied WITH Him. I see no room then for doubt albeit not undestanding all things. You can only face one way on a cross.neither for that matter can you turn back. The line is drawn.and your flag is nailed to the mast. and wether you live or die it will be unto the Lord. have you ever considerd what Jesus did when He wilingly gave hsi life? He had never sinned. Therefore he was not subject to death. I personaly love life. short though it is. His was a sinless perfect life not subject to death or sin. Yet willingly obeyed God as a free moral agent. and gave Himself as an offerign for sin. and
that pure undefiled soul upon whom was heaped upon all the rotten sin
of ALL to the degree that he who knew no sin became sin. So that we who were sinners might become the rightousnes of GOD. God thought it strange there was no one to stand in the gap.(isiah) The church glories in her 'adornments' (song of soloman) she wants the glory and to rule with Christ. but has forgotten that where the groom is there too must and will be the BRIDE. "IF we suffer with Him then aslo shall we reign with Him." To be made conformable to His death is to be totaly identified with Him. so that the two are one. Thus both in His death So too in the power of His resurection. gerald
This
is very good G. I agree , even tho we have been given a new will, so
that we are caused to walk in His ways, yet His ways are the ways of
walking in the valley of death. And in this way we are experiencing some
of the sorrow that is attended with our natural state in sin. But
Christ has walked that pathway for us. He walked it alone. Because He
had to suffer an eternal punishment in order to satisfy the Fathers
wrath for our sin. He plunged the depths of sin in order to become the
only real friend of sinners. He says i no longer call you slaves but i
call you friends. Death is a slow process that sneaks up on all
of us. Death is not only the state of dieing physically, but it is also a
state of mind that we cannot escape. Death is the prison of
experiencing pain and sorrow that is always present with us in this
life. And even tho we do not like to think of how we are going to die,
yet we are reminded of death when we experience its effects on a daily
basis. We groan inwardly, so that our groaning is part of the process of
waiting for our final redemption. But our experiencing death as a state
of mind is not just from the inward sorrows, but from being in a
community of sinners who are always confronted with the effects of the
process of sin and death. So that the more we are aware of this state of
mind in ourselves, the more we are going to understand the reality of
being in this community of dieing sinners.And the more we ignore this
eternal paradigm the more we are going to experience a hardening effect
on our hearts. The truth is we live as dieing sinners among other
dieing sinners. We live in the light of eternity where we stand before a
holy and all powerful God as sinners who experience every kind of
malady associated with death. Since we are corrupted in all of our parts
then we are weak in every area of our being in our struggle with sin
and death. The soul that sins shall die. Our problem is that we avoid
the reality of this state of mind. If we are made new then we are going
to mourn over our state of sin and death. There is no way to have the
joy of experiencing the pleasure and glory of Christ rule without
experiencing the sorrow over our natural state of sin. And when we
experience a certain level of joy in having fresh experience of His love
for us this will not be without the sorrow over our sin. It will mix
with our joy, at times more sorrow than joy, and at times will overcome
the joy of the moment, or will be a sorrow that has been numbed by His
grace so that the joy is full and unspeakable. Salvation is
experiencing that joy. Saving knowledge is a desire to see His glory ,
or a longing to see Him in glory. The knowledge is pleasing to our
understanding and is growing as we see Him in His word. We are growing
in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But sorrow has its
depths as well. And the more heights of joy we experience the more it
will contrast with sorrow. The level of our believing is how much
distress we will experience by having that kind of faith, deep sorrows
and high joys. Since we are growing in our understanding of the power of
sin, then sin will get magnified as we grow in our knowledge of Him and
we will experience the reality of how much power sin has in us. This is
a process of deep sorrow. It is a process of dieing to our
understanding of what makes us love our indifference. And it is seeing
how ugly we are by just going through the motions of religion. Because
the growth in faith is a growth of facing the fact that we have deep
depths of sorrow and great potential for rejoicing in Him with joy
unspeakable. We do not understand the effects of sin and death
unless we come to the realization that there is much rejection and
turmoil in our experiencing these different levels in our own souls. We
are always in the process of having the waters of the storms of life
sink us under as if we are overwhelmed with all of these sorrows.
Mourning this process is having an understanding of the level of sorrow
by the reality of the state of death in our thinking.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: How much unity do we need in a church?
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on: August 09, 2008, 05:34:07 PM
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Chemical
Erik. I read enough of you to know that you know that the Gospel is
promised in the Law and that the Law is fulfilled in the Gospel. (Sorry
for the unwieldly sentence!).
TB, as usual that was a very
well written and good post. I just had this little part here jump out to
me. Are you saying that the law has a positive effect in the gospel? Is
the law a way to be accepted? Or is the gospel of grace and the law
unmixed? Thanks bro.
Mbg, I belive that the positive
effect of the Law in the Gospel is to (pure and simple) show us what we
have been saved from. The Law shows God's pure righteousness and
holiness. If we did not have the Law we would not be able to get a
full-orbed idea of what God is (as far as His revealed will is
concerned) and what He expects and demands. to put it in short, the Law
reveals a majesty and a grandeur to which we could never hope to attain
to. In this respect, it is the bad news. But the bad news is
necessary before the good news can make any kind of sense. We all needed
to know that there was something we needed saving from. Christ
fulfilled the requirements of the Law on our behalf and became our
righteousness. We now no longer have to live under the fear of the Law
because the Law can no longer touch us. These things are not "mixed
together," they are the first and second half of a grand and wonderful
story. The Gospel is found all throughout the Old Testament in "types
and shadows." It is revealed in full in the New Testament in the
sacrafice of Christ. (P.S.) I know you know all of this already, Mbg. I just thought you would appreciate a more fully-orbed response!
Some
people think that you can gain freedom by meeting the requirements of
the law. But if we try to have any kind of gain by measuring ourselves
by the law, or judge ourselves by the standard of the law, it will be a
useless endeavor. Unless we lower our understanding of the law. Thats
why the commands lead us to Christ and in His substitutionary work we
are loved even tho we do not meet the requirements. We do not have the
process where we look at the requirements and conclude that we have met
them by His substitutionary work, or by any ability that He has in being
our substitute that makes us able. His work to meet the requirements is
what makes us acceptable. His work done in His way for His purposes is
what makes us acceptable. Unless we are united with Him, we do not gain
any acceptance. Some people think that He gives us the rite to meet
the requirements and so we are rewarded for our good works. That we
share in the rewards since we kept the requirements. But the bible says
that we never are able to meet the requirements, even tho we are
commanded to. So we never get acceptance in thinking that we were able
to get the reward for our obedience. Being justified is only by grace
and has nothing to do with our actions. Some people conclude
that since the scripture speaks well of these different men in the ot
and nt that there was something commendable in their work. But before
God all men are not good. And if there was some measure of acceptance by
doing that good, then there would be some ability to meet the full
requirements of the law. So that there would be no need of Christ
completed work through grace. Its either grace or works, it cannot be
both. Anyone who brings the law down presents man as good before God by
that work. But if the law is presented as eternal, then there are only
eternal requirements to be met. Only Christ who is eternal who is the
eternal sacrifice could meet the eternal requirements of the eternal
God. We really do not understand the level of obedience that is
required. We do not even have a full understanding of all of the sin we
possess by those unfathomable requirements. If God should judge us
according to our sins, Who could stand? Its like this, anytime man
moves in the direction where he sees history in mans causing, or he
exalts men in the religious societies, then God brings that system down.
Every time man mixes his power and ability with Gods working, or he
makes standards by presenting these methods as having an acceptance in
fulfilling them as if we look to that method as having an acceptance in
our relationships then God determines to make the standards a reason for
boasting, and then more conflicts begin. Cause God does not share His
Sons complete work as bringing Himself glory with the ability of any
man. What ever we do, is for His praise. All these connections are the
consequences of our view of God. The contrast in think is like this. I go to the bible and find something that i can do to make things better. or I go to the bible and find myself woefully short of the commands and find in Christ my only hope. What i choose is the focus of what goes on in my life for good or bad. or What
He did on my behalf is my only ability in this life so that my own will
is no longer an issue, but only to impede me from glorifying and
enjoying Him forever. I am most happy when i am totally dependent on Him
for the power to do anything and so i am most happy when i am exalting
His power. I do not judge any man cause He favors all men. I forgive everyone with the same forgiveness. I
see that we all deserve to die for one sin, and i long for the
salvation of all men, but i also see that He has made His judgment for
His own glory and i am to leave that in His hands longing to have all
these things worked out so that it will all end. If i love people it will be because i love myself. or My
only concern for myself is that i know there is a difference between my
love for myself which is natural and no concern for myself at all. I am able to do good so if i dont then He will not come along and help me out. I do the work first and He helps me out. or My
only ability is in my union with Christ, and everything that i know to
be true is how much closer i am growing in my understanding of that
connection.
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6135
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: How much unity do we need in a church?
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on: August 09, 2008, 03:21:30 PM
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Chemical Erik. I read enough of you to know
that you know that the Gospel is promised in the Law and that the Law
is fulfilled in the Gospel. (Sorry for the unwieldly sentence!).TB,
as usual that was a very well written and good post. I just had this
little part here jump out to me. Are you saying that the law has a
positive effect in the gospel? Is the law a way to be accepted? Or is
the gospel of grace and the law unmixed? Thanks bro.
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Faith without works is dead
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on: August 09, 2008, 02:17:52 PM
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I think the confusion is that we have these
different definitions of what salvation is according to the way we
define freedom of the will. There are so many different views so that
the waters of faith and works have been muddied by the lack of detail
which is caused by our distaste for systems of theology. "Without
knowledge my people perish." In the 20th century we define this paradigm
of faith -works as a balance of different theological views. In other
words we define downward the whole counsel of God as it relates to the
study of Theology and anthropology. Without detailing the whole
theology of salvation we are left to our own views as to what defines a
person who is saved. Our natural tendencies are to trust in man. Our
natural view of this balance between Calvinism and Armin ism is to
inflate the pride of man and exalt the ability of man. We would like to
think that consequences are only related in response to our outward
behavior, since we define the means of faith as not having an effect as a
spiritual unseen realm of presuppositions and consequences because all
causes have effects not just the ones we can see. What we think this
verse is saying always applies as it is defined and understood by the
rest of scripture. It is not a philosophy of life to prove that we have
the ability to prove in ourselves to others that we are saved. Because
man looks on the outward, but God looks on the heart. Or ,that God sees
all causes and effects and judges the consequences accordingly. The
only real cause of righteousness is being justified by Christ. Or being
declared righteous and having His righteousness imputed to our account
so that we are seen as completely righteous. This verse is not
encouraging us to live by the law and to judge others by the law. But
its encouraging us to live in the mystical union of Christ, by the means
He has prescribed in order to have the proper causes of all effects be
in relation to how we stand in Christ. Since those who live by the
law will die by the law, since Christ has co
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Why was there if they did not.
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on: August 06, 2008, 06:36:51 PM
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mybig -
While
I agree with most of what you say, it seems your filling in some holes
the bible doesn't fill. Also, the tree was the knowledge of GOOD and
evil. I think we're missing something if we ignore that eating the
fruit brought good knowledge as well as evil. My impression is that sin
of A&E was one of self-reliance, instead of relying on GOD to tell
them what is good and what is evil.
If you look in the text
in Gen, you will see that prior to the Serpents arrival on the scene,
and after the six day, God pronounced everything was good. So that there
was in that period the entrance of evil. And since God did not expose
man to evil, save the entrance of the Serpent then we can say that it
was in the temptation that man had his first experience of evil. The
knowledge of good and evil was not in the tree. God did not create evil. The
attraction of the beauty of the tree was not the reason man fell.
Otherwise it would be worse by that garden beauty than the having an
attraction by the fallen creation. We really cannot fathom why man
who had no inclination to sin, since sin was not the cause of his
rebellion. If sin was the cause then man was not totally free as having
the ability to pass the moral requirements. So if man had an equal
choice between the temptation by the devil and his love of being rite or
keeping the law , then how could the temptation or the desire to sin be
stronger than the desire to do the rite that man had the ability to do?
There was no pre -cause of sin that existed in man. I cant understand
this. But if man would have declined the Serpents lie, then man would
have known evil but he would have overcome the evil. Otherwise what
would be the the reason for man to have been rewarded with eternal
righteousness?
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6147
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Why was there if they did not.
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on: August 06, 2008, 04:51:55 PM
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Prior to the fall man had a moral ability. He
was able to keep the law of God in order for his acceptance. Thats why
it says in Gal, that those who live by the law will die by the law. So
the law was the standard for mans being qualified to share in the
relationship with God in the garden. Man was always under that
obligation to keep the whole law. There was a tension as if it was a
test to see if man could continue to keep the righteous standard of Gods
requirements in order to obtain eternal life by upholding the standard
and continuing in his obedience. When the serpent came on the seen man
was fully able to resist that temptation by the power of his will in
order to pass that test and fulfill his obligations. But man chose to
have a knowledge of evil and being under the bondage of evil. The
temptation was not wrong, that is having a new knowledge of evil. But
being overtaken by the evil in that knowledge was not the design that
man was intended to fall into.
If man would have not eaten of
the tree, then he would have been able to enjoy the tree of life as
being righteous without the ability to sin. But when man gave into the
temptation then he became corrupted in all of his parts and died
spiritually. And in his new view of himself after his corruption man was
self conscious under a new power. He was under the power of guilt
,shame and fear as a result of falling under the power of sin. Instead
of seeking God out, man was thought for the first time that he could
hide from God. Man was darkened in his understanding and now thought
that he could live by the law. Man tried to live by the law apart from
Gods forgiveness. Man became self righteous. He was so blinded by sin
that he actually thought that he could and did fulfill the requirements
of the law by his own works in making his own garments.
This is
the state of man in his blindness. He really believes that he can be
righteous by keeping the law. But God says that the law only has one
function for man since man no longer has the moral ability to do moral
good. The law only shows man his sin. The law works death in man. The
law is made to show man his sin by awakening his conscience to its
requirements condemning him by the conscience voice of condemnation. The
law an the conscience bring sin to be alive. Since man really believes
that he is good, the law and its requirements bring man to understand
that he is not good.
Man tries to feel sorrow for breaking the
law, but the law only makes man feel as if his apologies are useless.
The law and the conscience work to keep man from seeking forgiveness by
grace. Because man is dead in sins and trespasses, then man cannot
obtain grace in order to be able to meet the requirements of the law.
Man only wants to keep the law by doing something to meet the
requirements and then having a view of himself that he is able in
himself to receive the good graces of others and of his god by doing the
requirement or something to reconcile himself that he made up for
breaking it.The more he tries to obey the law the more he must quiet his
conscience since the conscience can only be quieted by grace and not by
works.
Man is always trying to get into Gods good graces by this
work. This work apart from the Spirit of God is the cause of all false
religions in the world. Man obtaining righteousness by his own way in
his own time. Man cannot obtain real righteousness apart from the saving
work of Christ. So that the more self righteous man tries to live by
the more he is obnoxious to the work of Christ. If you live by the law
you will die by the law.
Thats why man must turn to Christ, or be
regenerated and made righteous by grace through faith. The only way man
can enjoy true freedom is apart from the works of the law. Christ has
come and has made man completely righteous by imputing His righteousness
to mans account. There is no work by the law that is good enough to
obtain this righteousness. This righteousness is imputed once for all.
It is not given out over time, it is not according to each work of man,
it is not making man righteous in himself, it does not give man the
ability to obey the law. It is only by grace through faith.
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6148
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: How much unity do we need in a church?
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on: August 06, 2008, 08:03:33 AM
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Well Gerald,
I suppose you are very fortunate to have found a congregation that is totally perfect in every way.
My
church is full of sinners and our sin nature leads us all to understand
things differently from each other. However, because we all recognize
that we are sinners, we give each other wiggle room.
No, praying
to a saint is NOT idolatry. It is asking somebody else (a dead saint) to
help you with a problem. I agree that it is not the way God wants us to
seek counsel, but it is NOT worshiping an idol.
There are quite a
lot of idol worshipers in my church, though. Some worship sports,
others food, and the big one is those who worship at the altar of
finances. There are also those who think it is the government who will
supply their needs.
But I am sure you have found the perfectly pure congregation. Congratulations.
Although I fear it must be awful lonely!
Here is my problem. When
I read the scriptures.I find people having an encounter with God and
thier lives so radicly changed the only way to describe it is being BORN
again. Born of heaven. I find that the life of the church in the
book of acts is so radicly different then what is considered the norm
to day .I have to wonder if the norm of the day is the church at alll it
is so far off the mark. True you have the problems in corinth. But what of Ehpesians! What does a man do with if ye are child of God "ye shall not sin" true it says after "but if we do we have an advocate with the FAther..." But the Emphasis is ye shall NOT! What do you do I or anybody who says they are a christian do with that? If that is denied then what do I do with "if ye walk in the Spirit you will NOT fullfill the lusts of the felsh"? What do I do with "ye young men the Word of God dwelth in you richly and ye(listen!) have over come the wicked one"! What do I or anybody who says they love the Lord do with "be ye followers of me as I am also of Christ"? Paul speaking. When
to follow paul tantamounts to beatings stripes without number shipwreck
left for dead ,stonings,wrestlign with wild beasts. and the like. Yet there is also "these things are nothign compared to the glory that shall be revealed." I fear I would be very lonely in your church it seems. But
I am not in mine.seeign that the most of us are seekign to brign our
expereince up to the scriptures rather than bring the scriptures down to
our expereince. In THAT we are one. and much else besides. This may seem harsh but you said it .I must therefore answer. if your church gives wiggle room to sin.Then you can be sure that the sin will grow and godliness willl decline. Worse I see no where in the scriptures that shows God giving sin ANY ROOM! The Bride of Christ will be free from the power of sin and will walk in the Spirit and will never give sin wiggle room. But rather crucyfy it even as God has. ANYTHING that comes between you and GOD is idolitory. What the idol is matters not. its an abomination and a snare. Perhaps an attitude to one gives or lends to the attitude to the other? The problem is we dont believe the Word of God. John 17 says what is to be the order of that unity. Anythign else is falling short. But how is it to come about? That we might eb wholy sanctafied. MIND BODY SPIRIT. To be BORNagain pertains to the Spirit. if our minds are given over to the world and it is not brought into conformity to the Word of God. Then there is NO unity on earth. Only outward conformity to traditions. What do I do with "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"? if we do not even know what His will in heaven is! Well I refuse to believe the world. God is more trustworthy.It is not what we all decide to agree on. That brings unity at all! Are we in agreement with God? If each person is then there will be unity! if
each person agrees with each other but not with God then it matters not
a wit there is and will be disunity the only unitythere will be in
opposing the will of God. Pilate and herod were enemies untill it came to Christ then they became freinds. The sandhedrein hated the romans but united with them in thier opposition to Christ. So too then will his enemies be of his own household, Where the groom is so too the bride. Thus her enemies will be of her own household too. gerald
The
confusion is about what makes a person obedient. There is no law of
obedience. Since we live in the covenant of grace. Got to go.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: How much unity do we need in a church?
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on: August 04, 2008, 09:59:16 PM
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Its extremely difficult to have unity in a
church since there are so many teachings in our society and there are so
many different kinds of denominations, including those who define
themselves as non denominational.
Real unity can only be
achieved in a church when everyone is on the same page doctrinally.
Unity is expressed in a united confession of the faith. The confession
is an expression of the truths that come from the text of scripture. If
there is a problem or a disagreement about scripture then there is a
secondary point of agreement or disagreement based upon what the
confession is saying. So that if there is a disagreement over the
interpretation of scripture then it will always be a point of
disagreement with the confession.
Our obligation to one another
is to be honest in what we believe. If we do not agree with the main
tenants of the wcf then we are not going to have a level of unity that
acts as one man. Our obligation is to covenant with one another that we
will seek to support one another in this confessional way. That is, what
we work out to be unified in a practical sense is conforming our
beliefs to the confession or we have not really grown in holiness and we
are not honoring our obligation to our covenants.
The focus of
unity is reformation. You cant have reformation in a practical sense
unless you are focused repeatedly going back to the confession as your
confession of who Christ is. In this sense most of the practical
problems in epistemology is in the fundamental disagreement of the
teaching itself. Even in marriage. We act according to what we love and
our love is shown by the time we spend in that focus. Since Christ is
the head of the church, then a definition that is not within the
confessional view is a lack of understanding in sharing in that view
toward unity.
This is an honest explanation. I am just passing it on in my own words. Any other logic to me is dishonest.
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me and done all that is
required by the law, then no one will be justified by how he obeys the
law. Now we live in a covenant of grace in which Christ has revealed
Himself through His eternal word, and we are being sanctified by seeing
Him as fully sufficient by growing in our union with Him by His word.
The law only leads us to Christ, it offers no positive effects for us
apart from Christ. |
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