The
New Monks critique the current state of Christianity by arguing that
since God is holy and is a \"wholly other,\" He cannot be defined by
systems of doctrine. They maintain that western rationalism has crushed
the knowledge of God and that we must return to a more intuitively
received knowledge. We must move beyond the intellect, beyond doctrine,
and beyond words to a deeper union with God. Their writings contain
rather complex discussions on the nature of being and share common
themes of universality, mystical union with God through contemplation
(wordless \"prayer\"), social justice, and non-violence.
The
New Monks maintain that all religions should immerse themselves in the
myths of their tradition because there is power in the \"collective
unconscious\"13 of the tradition to shape the experience of its
followers. So, for the New Monk, the use of biblical language has great
power within the Christian tradition. For example, the call to
salvation14 is actually a call to a transformation of consciousness to
be psychologically awakened to the unity and oneness of all creation.
For the New Monks all religions at their deepest mystical level use myth
and symbol to say the same thing. Wow! Why dont we just forget about
thinking and just make up a god of our own!
| 8917
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Forums / Main Forum / Cheap Grace?
|
on: June 23, 2006, 10:32:57 PM
|
|
I
have been thinking about the cause and effect paradigm in all logical
thinking. As the cause is so is the effect. The effect has the essence
of the cause in it. So the closer we get to the effect the stronger will
be the cause. The greater distance from the cause the weaker the the
effect.
Now Here in this verse in Pauls letters about working
out your own salvation because it is God who works in you is more of
this cause and effect relationship than a 50-50 relationship. It is not
Gods done his part and now its your job to finish it. In our day and age
we here this proposal constantly. There is a misunderstanding of this
cause and effect relationship that this verse is puts forth here.
In
our modern day thinking when we say that there is this 50-50
relationship here in this verse we are saying that there is an abiding
truth outside of the realm of theology where man is represented here as
doing something to acheive the ends that God wants him to accomplish.
This doing something is represented as strickly mans action and Gods
reaction. Or Gods commands and mans obedience. In other words what we
have in the 50-50 is man is all action and God is all command. This
verse is not teaching this philosophy. This verse does not define man
this way.
Obviously the closer you get to the cause the more the
cause will define who you are, and the farther away you get from the
cause the more you will define who you are. This is what the verse is
depicting here in God working in you. In a 50-50 relationship what is
equal is your will and Gods will working in unison. When we define us
having a self determined will we are saying that we have just as much
rite for us to define who we are as people as God does.What we are
saying is that we can have a philosophy of 50 -50 about ourselves that
is equal to the theology taught here in this cause and effect
relationship.
The whole universe is a cause and effect universe
because God created the universe and in that creation is the
explaination of the cause. God defines who He is by the creation. And
yet there are also characteristics within the physical aspects of
creation that are in the cause and effect paradigm in the universe. In
how the universe functions is included in the cause and effect paradigm.
All the moral discisions in the universe are a part of the cause and
effect paradigm in all of those things that run the physical parts of
the universe, including mans discisions. To say that there is no cause
and effect the moment time started in all of the moments of time both
physical and non physical is to just create an irrational paradigm of
existence.
A self determined will has no cause since it is
neutral not desiring good or evil. To will is to desire one thing over
another, to be undetermined about the choice of two equal objects
presupposes no cause in the supposed self determined will. In this 50
-50 view of this verse there really is no cause in the choice and so
there really is no understanding of the effect or real experience in
effects but rather a rationalization , and an illogical determination of
who God is and our relationship to Him.
The logical cause and
effect is that God cause all things to work together for good for those
who love Him. In our working he is the cause of our working and He is in
the effect of our working. The closer we get to the cause the more we
are going to work in line with His design and the farther we get from
the cause the less we will be in line with His will. We must see that
there is a cause in the universe and there is a cause in our choices. We
desire one thing over another because one desire is stronger than the
other and the reason is because there is a cause for our choice to
desire one thing over another. Our new life in us is the cause. The more
we experience God presence in His word the more we will choose by cause
the good and work out our salvation.
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| 8924
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Forums / Main Forum / Cheap Grace?
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on: June 21, 2006, 10:03:41 PM
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As coincidence would have it, I'm listening to Kirk Cameron preach on this very thing. It's
a little long, but is well worth it for those of you who don't believe
Acts 17:30-31, which, at the moment, appears to be all of you. http://www.sermonaudio.com/...2305131055
We are to be in love with God so much that
when the message is given there is a spiritual renewal effect in the
air. We are to follow the Holy Spirit in our communication with the
unsaved and give them what they need as well as calling for a change in
the life. There is a history of this kinda lawyer type message, that is
explaining the gospel in a sorta dry, doctrinal focus on the way we
present the message so that we can confront a person with their sin and
get an effect from them.
We are to be in front of those who are not.
We are to have such a heated passion for the things of God that there
is a supernatural effect in who we are around others. This can only be
accomplished in much meditation and prayer.
| 8932
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Forums / Theology Forum / Is Theology Your God?
|
on: June 19, 2006, 04:47:00 PM
|
See
our problem is us. Its the way we think, the bent we have to believe in
our corruption and that disposition of insane loves that causes us to
loose heart and succomb to this numbness. We vasilate between trusting
in our ability to accomplish our own righteousness, and the utter
feeling of helplessness in having a deep longing for Gods presence
because we embrace idolic tendencies, fearful worries, self confident
desires, and a deceptive self awareness that infects all of our
relationships. We are self protective, overly self conscious, and
selfishly independent. In this state we are very receptive to idols. We
fear the very thing we worship, we long for the very thing that causes
us to be self decieved, we trust in the very person who is finite, and
we live in this state of self awareness insecurity thinking that this is
a normal generated social identification that makes a necessary
function of acceptance by others.
The truth is we are finite
beings whose existence is given to us by God who always existed. We live
and move and have our being in God. The pre begining of us was minded
by God before before we existed. We are dependent on God outside of time
for our existence in time. And yet all things have their origin from
God and are moved by God , by having their end purpose already
determined in eternity. What we experience in time is already determined
before time at the moment we experience it and so it is ordered by God
who does everything perfect. There really is no self determined
existence in the creature. We are swollowed up in the beauty of all of
Gods purposes and we as believers are able to experience the pleasure of
that glory of God. We make things so diffulcult by thinging so
irrationally.
| 8949
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Forums / Main Forum / The Crisis Of A Christless Christianity
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on: June 11, 2006, 01:05:12 PM
|
Philosophy
is dangerous to the way we think if we are not putting it up in the
lense of the word of God. Philosophy in itself is not evil, but the
problem is when we are exposed to it we can be decieved very easily. All
of us are natural doubters of the absolute supernatural abilities in
God in the providence sense. Because of sin we naturally want to worship
a god of our own making. Calvin says we are little god makers. We
fashion a god from our own experience and knowlege.
In this
society the amount of time we spend in meditation on the word of God and
prayer does not equal the time we are exposed to American philosophy.
Basically it is if it works then it is the truth. We naturally do not
like to be exposed to absolute truth that challenges our way of
thinking. We would rather find out what works and then it will fashion
our way of thinking.
We also do not like to wait on answers for
our problems. Our motto is God has done His part now He is waiting for
you to do yours. In other words find out what works and do it in a
practical way. In other words dont worry about thinking or examining the
whole scope of absolute truth but get a simple explanation so that you
can begin implementing it into your daily routine. Get a plan that tells
you what to do and then do it.
The bible offers an exclusive
pattern for finding truth as well as defining what truth is. The bible
is the revelation of God and stands apart from any other written book.
The defense of the bible is its ability to work where ever it is read
and taught. The bible is not an empty waste of time from being exposed
to it nor does the activtivity of its Spirit filled words need to wait
on us to do something for it to be active in our lives. It meets every
need at every second of our life on this earth. It contains all we need
for life and godliness.
The bible is a pathway to a relationship
with Jesus Christ. If you want Christ to speak directly to you then it
must be through the words of scripture. Philosophy offers a system of
pragmitism, the bible shows a person who he is, explaining in detail
what he needs and what he is given in Christ and then works to renew all
of these promises and heavenly glories in that person. It is an active
word.
There is
also a spirit of philosophy. The spirit of philosophy tends to be dry,
and it is airated in a way that gives a person a temparory hope but does
not satisfy the deepest longings of the soul. It focuses on behaviour
with guilt as its over all drive. It almost never grabs a persons
spiritual desires but only influences a persons conscience helping a
person feel good by relieving a trouble conscience but hardly ever
getting to the desires of a persons inmost being. The spirit of
philosophy is the driving force for all systems of man. It makes people
extremely active in their minds by a superficial set of standards that
are well defined and can be kept. That spirit brings about self
righteousness. It is a spirit that desires self flagilation, self
grandisement, and self discovery. It is a spirit that locks a person
into its mold by offering a premise and then describing the solution. In
this spirit is this circular way of thinking. This spirit is a heavey
weight of self deception because the person hardly ever experiences
desire driven theological transformation by direct application of the
Holy Spirit on the heart through renewal. The Holy Spirit is spiritual
desire driven.
| 8950
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Forums / Main Forum / The Crisis Of A Christless Christianity
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on: June 11, 2006, 12:47:13 PM
|
Philosophy
is dangerous to the way we think if we are not putting it up in the
lense of the word of God. Philosophy in itself is not evil, but the
problem is when we are exposed to it we can be decieved very easily. All
of us are natural doubters of the absolute supernatural abilities in
God in the providence sense. Because of sin we naturally want to worship
a god of our own making. Calvin says we are little god makers. We
fashion a god from our own experience and knowlege.
In this
society the amount of time we spend in meditation on the word of God and
prayer does not equal the time we are exposed to American philosophy.
Basically it is if it works then it is the truth. We naturally do not
like to be exposed to absolute truth that challenges our way of
thinking. We would rather find out what works and then it will fashion
our way of thinking.
We also do not like to wait on answers for
our problems. Our motto is God has done His part now He is waiting for
you to do yours. In other words find out what works and do it in a
practical way. In other words dont worry about thinking or examining the
whole scope of absolute truth but get a simple explanation so that you
can begin implementing it into your daily routine. Get a plan that tells
you what to do and then do it.
The bible offers an exclusive
pattern for finding truth as well as defining what truth is. The bible
is the revelation of God and stands apart from any other written book.
The defense of the bible is its ability to work where ever it is read
and taught. The bible is not an empty waste of time from being exposed
to it nor does the activtivity of its Spirit filled words need to wait
on us to do something for it to be active in our lives. It meets every
need at every second of our life on this earth. It contains all we need
for life and godliness.
The bible is a pathway to a relationship
with Jesus Christ. If you want Christ to speak directly to you then it
must be through the words of scripture. Philosophy offers a system of
pragmitism, the bible shows a person who he is, explaining in detail
what he needs and what he is given in Christ and then works to renew all
of these promises and heavenly glories in that person. It is an active
word.
| 8959
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Forums / Main Forum / Interpersonal Communications
|
on: June 10, 2006, 06:28:13 AM
|
MBG I thought you brought up some very good points! And Tom I thought
you addressed them very well too. I think you really bring the gospel
of Jesus into the art of interpersonal communications--Thank you.
I'd
like to offer something to think about. I think my first real grasp of
this was when my husband and kids and I did a Bible study in Genesis.
My husband has a very keen ability to look at the Lord in a very
practical manner--easy to understand.
He was talking to our
kids about how God had angels to worship Him, so why did he create us
anyway? For fellowship. He created us in His image that He gave
freewill to choose to fellowship with Him or to not. I won't go into
the whole discussion here, but you get the idea.
So God is a God
of communication! Fellowshipping is communicating. God created all
the animals, but yet He also said in Gen 2:18 The Lord God said "It's
not good for man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."
So there again, God made someone for Adam to communicate with on his
own level. Eve walked in the flesh of the body just like Adam did, so
they could relate to one another through similar eyes. (well okay,
sometimes very far apart...LOL)
God also walked and talked in the
cool of the day with Adam and Eve. What an awesome picture that draws,
the COOL of the day, that could be morning or evening. To me, dusk and
dawn are two of the most beautiful times of day.
I get the
picture that it was dusk because Adam and Eve had already had their day
of temptation and eating the apple, then it says -
Genesis 3:8 Then
the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking
in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God
among the trees of the garden.
I just think that draws such an
awe inspiring picture of walking and talking and fellowshipping with the
Lord God. How awesome that must have been and I wonder if he was in a
physical form since they HEARD him "walking"? I guess that is something
we will know once we get to heaven. Just that verse alone though,
communicates a lot to me about the fellowship God had with Adam and Eve
and what He wants with us. I like to draw mental pictures and I can
just see the beautiful garden and in the cool of the day. When you are
done with your work (I picture Adam tending to the garden and animals)
and God says--"so how was your day" AWESOME!
The Bible also says
that His creation speaks loudly of Him, so there again He is
communicating to us through that means. And boy is it a beautiful,
complicated, yet simple and changing means. Seasons, the sun, the moon,
the stars. The complexity of the working body, trees, flowers, bees
and animals and regeneration of life. I could go on and on! The
mountains, the ocean, a beautiful little baby! So many many things. It
all speaks of HIM!
And God being that Creator, I mean we all
know that, but I hadn't quite looked at it as that is why we all like to
create things too. And we do speak through our creations of art, music
and so on. When God created something He said it was good or in some
places VERY GOOD. So being made in His image we do love the things we
make and create and communicate through--we too like to say that is good
or very good.
So I really do see communication as a very integral part of the Christian walk.
So
keep going Tom! And I'm most anxious to learn about listening skills
too. You might have posted that already I haven't had time to read yet
tonight.
Good
Points G2H. There are a few points i want to make about the creation of
man in the garden. First , it is thought after a study of the account
of creation that satan or lucifer who was created as the most beatiful
angel and the highest ranking angel , was created at the time of the
creation of the earth.
His domain was in the garden of Eden in
that creation and after God had created everything including man he
pronounced everything good. In between God pronouncing everthing that He
had made good and his fall from heaven and his appearance in the garden
as a serpent we short in time lapse.
Gods ultimate purpose in
creating all things is to bring glory to Himself. When he put man in the
garden God had a purpose in the garden for man. He gave man a test. Man
was under tension because man had to keep the law perfectly in order
for man to earn eternal life. This was the covenant of works and God had
a purpose in the garden that was not going to be thawrted, that is all
Gods purposes in creation are to bring glory to Himself. God has an
ultimate purpose as well as His purpose in the garden. His ultimate
purpose is that He is the end of all things what He makes and what he
accomplishes in the creation of all things is only good.
So God
designed it so that man would fall to bring glory to Himself in the
sending of His Son so that all the comunicated qualities after the
garden would be better than the in the garden , being fulfilled in
Christ. Man actually had a short test in the garden as well as Lucifer.
Man failed to earn righteousness and when He sinned he failed the test.
The relationship of fellowship with God in the garden had a tension in
it.
Actually we have a greater capacity to enjoy fellowship with
God than Adam did. The Father sent the Son into the world to fulfill all
righteousness and the Son obeyed the law completely both passively and
actively. Christ did what adam failed to do. He lived a perfect life on
this earth , died for sin , and now is in heaven as our High Priest
interceeding for us. When we are saved we get His righteousness imputed
to us, and our sin was imputed to Him on the cross. We are able to go
to the Father any time and with great confidence. Because we have the
righteousness of Christ we are accepted by grace, it is free access.
Adam had to earn his righteousness. Oh what a mystery of love. God
actually gets more glory in our situation in this fallen world by
displaying a greater love, a greater power, a greater Man than the first
man Adam!
| 8962
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Forums / Main Forum / Interpersonal Communications
|
on: June 09, 2006, 08:36:10 PM
|
Thanks Jim MBG said
There
is also a spiritual element here that has been ignored because marriage
partners are more interested in embracing a philosophy of marriage
rather than having the scripture transform their minds and then dealing
with the deeper issues of the heart. That is dealing with mortification
of sin, focusing on Christ and His righteousness as the remedy for
having personal needs met in our relationship with our Father.
. Agreed.
If both parties in a marriage are truly looking to God for direction
and guidance, IMO the marriage has a much better chance of being
successful. then he said
If
the answers were as simple as saying the rite things to each other in
communication then we could become our own gods ie the tower of babel
communication ignoring our Fathers love as the real source of oneness.
Hard
to argue there. I am not saying that communication is saying the right
things. Nothing can replace a couples true committment to God and to
one another in a marriage. But communication is so much more just
saying the right things. Every night I pray that I wil be the
husband that God would have me to be. I sincerely believe that He wants
me to be able to communicate love and respect to my wife along with the
idea that I do not take her for granted. He has helped me be able to
empathize with her in ways that I had not thought of before. This
is important because I believe that Jesus can empathize with us more
perfectly than anyone else. He knows our struggles because He has
walked in our shoes. So in following Him maybe I will get a portion of
what He knows about empathy and caring. Both important concepts in
interpersonal relationships.
Communicating
is not just an art form, but it comes from an understanding of who we
are so that when we speak we speak with a certianty and a passion for
the other persons edification and not just a coming to an agreement as
if the words we trade are acknowleged. This process is a complex and
mysterious experience because it involves a comunication with the Spirit
so that in His response to our meditation He reveals to us our deep
needs for close personal relationships.
Here is where the Holy
Spirit works with our desires, whether they are gloomy , cold, happy or
joyful. We know the Holy Spirit is communicating to us when we are
inflamed with holy desires from meditation on Gods glory. He gets us to
desire the rite things at the rite time in the rite situation in
personal relationships so that His presence releases us to open up with
such a feedom that there is a sweetness in that communication in our
relationships with one another.
But before we can have this
extraordinary freedom we must go through some inward struggles, inward
wrestling, and some profound revelations as to who we are and what we
need and what we desire most. If our desires are not mature desires,
then conflict will be brought out of us by the word and the Spirit so
that in conflict we experience a stretching of these extreme desires of
helplessness and trust into resting. This conflict actually is the
caboose that pulls us to experience this supernatural freedom.
This
spiritual wrestling actually mirrors our relationships with one another
so the more we know ourselves the more we will be at peace and the more
freedom we will experience and the more joyful desires we will
experience and the more others will be drawn into this freedom in
communication as we express our desires to one another. In this kind of
communication there is a liveliness, an atmosphere of gittiness as if it
were a supernatural joy experienced in a level of profound sharing. Oh
pray that God will begin to reveal Himself to those around us and to us
so that in that expentant pray we pave the way for areas where we can
generate freedom and a new found insight into those who are struggling
with who they are.
| 8965
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Forums / Main Forum / Interpersonal Communications
|
on: June 08, 2006, 07:17:25 PM
|
Onetake
there are more ways to write than just learning modern day modes of
communication. One of the problems i have with all of this focus on
communication skills is that there is a temptation to eliminate any
thing that is meta physical, or spiritual. I am more attracked to free
writing because there is not as much judgement on a persons thinking in
going against the grain of societal biases.
Just focusing on
interpersonal communication as a human focus is rather boring to me.
Granted reading alot of youalls interpersonal communications is
interesting but after a while it is the same old stuff, patting people
on the back, encouraging people who are down, lecturing people on morals
etc, talking about church work or service, talkiing about family etc.
Its all good but there is so much more to life than just the human
personality and its expressions, the 5 senses etc.I see the world
in a much broader world view than just getting along with people. There
is so much of the spiritual , inanamate to explore.
| 8968
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Forums / Main Forum / Interpersonal Communications
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on: June 08, 2006, 12:44:28 PM
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Perception
or understanding has a lot to do with the desire in a person. We have a
desire to sin from birth, and it is natural to our understanding.
Having a desire to sin brings us to choose sin because in our
understanding of the object or perception of a system of beliefs we are
informed in our understanding based on that bias. Sin is really the
cheif reason that our perception of anything is drawn from the
irrational. And just because we rationally know that it is wrong to
perceive something in a moral sense we still choose to do wrong inspite
of our rational abilities. So sin does have a greater effect on our
perception than our thinking abilities.
Yet our past experience
plays an important part in how we understand these life challenges.
Because we are people who have passions, and we are physical beings who
have senses we collect memories that are felt deeply that have an effect
on our understanding or perception. We develope habits based apoun our
past experiences. All of these expereinces either give us pleasure or
pain and so we avoid the pain and naturally are attracted to the
pleasure even tho the pleasure is wrong. And that gets back to our real
bad habit which is sin. We naturally in our past experience love the
pleasure of sin even tho we rationally know it is wrong and so we
develope habits based apoun our love with the pleasure of sin. Sin
really has a dominating effect on our desires. When we avoid pain we
become irrational in our thinking and we teach our understanding to
perceive wrong.
So our struggle with sin is the number one
problem with our perceiving these things and then our past experience
has an effect but does not actually make desire for sin a greater desire
than the desire to do good. Our past experience affects our
understanding but sin is the well that tips the scales. If we think that
past experience plays the major role in our perception then we
pragmatic. We are actually giving more power to past experience than the
power of sin in us.
| 8973
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Forums / Main Forum / I Love You?
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on: June 07, 2006, 09:31:27 PM
|
I
think Jen has a point. There is a difference between being close to
someone on the internet and being close to someone in real life. Even
men and women who meet on the internet for building a relationship get
to a point where they want to up the closeness and so they schedule a
planned meeting.
I was thinking about how this would apply about
just reading the scripture and where the mystery is say in who the
apostle Paul is as in comparision to being in his presence and
developing a relationship with him. So maybe it really isnt about the
apostle paul and that necessity of fulfillment by comunicating in
person. Could the fact that we do not know the author of Hebrews be a
statement about focusing on Christ and not the author? So really the
encouragement is in knowing that they were only men yet persevered to
the end.
Then there is the hope of one day meeting some of the
great saints in heaven. Granted we will be fully human growing in
knowlege as Christ throughout eternity. So there still will be that
human element in in glory with this satisfaction.
Yet we have our
world, our local churches, the people we rub shoulders with every week
and sometimes more often. Then there is the giving of oneself in all of
this sastifaction in flesh and blood relationships.
Yea, maybe the
net fulfills certian itches such as writing something from the heart and
then feeling good about that , yet the net only scratches certian
itches. Oh well i am tired and am sick.
| 8975
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Forums / Theology Forum / Is Theology Your God?
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on: June 07, 2006, 04:25:39 AM
|
|
John i. 14. “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we
beheld his glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father,) full
of grace and truth;†where John very probably had in his mind what he
had seen in the mount at the transfiguration. Grace and truth are not
outward, but spiritual, glories.
Secondly. It is an intellectual
view by which God is seen. God is a spiritual being, and he is beheld
with the understanding. The soul has in itself those powers which are
capable of apprehending objects, and especially spiritual objects,
without looking through the windows of the outward senses. This is a
more perfect way of perception than by the eyes of the body. We are so
accustomed and habituated to depend upon our senses, and our
intellectual powers are so neglected and disused, that we are ready to
conceive that seeing things with the bodily eyes is the most perfect way
of apprehending them. But it is not so; the eye of the soul is vastly
more perfect than the eye of the body; yet it is not every apprehension
of God by the understanding that may be called the seeing of him. As,
1st.
The having an apprehension of God merely by hearsay. If we hear of such
a being as God, are educated in the belief that there is such a being,
are told what sort of being he is, and what he has done, and are rightly
told, and we give credit to what we hear; yet if we have no
apprehension of God in any other way, we cannot be said to see God in
the sense of the text. This is not the beatific sight of God.
2d.
If we have an apprehension of God merely by speculative reasoning. If
we come to some apprehension of God’s being, and of his being
almighty, all-wise, and good, by ratiocination, that is not what the
Scripture calls seeing God. It is some more immediate way of
understanding and viewing that is called sight; nor will such an
apprehension as this merely ever make the soul truly blessed. Nor,
3d.
Is every more immediate and sensible apprehension of God, that seeing
of him mentioned in the text, and that which is truly beatific. The
wicked spirits in the other world have doubtless more immediate
apprehensions of the being of God, and of his power and wrath, than the
wicked in this world. They stand before God to be judged, they receive
the sentence from him, they have a dreadful apprehension of his wrath
and displeasure. But yet they are exceedingly remote from seeing God, in
the sense of the text.
But to see God, is this. It is to have an
immediate, sensible, and certain understanding of God’s glorious
excellency and love.
1st. There must be a direct and immediate
sense of God’s glory and excellency. I say direct and immediate, to
distinguish it from a mere perception that God is glorious and excellent
by means of speculative and distant argumentation, which is a more
indirect way of apprehending things. A true sense of the glory of God is
that which can never be obtained by speculative ratiocination; and if
men convince themselves by argument that God is holy, that never will
give a sense of his amiable and glorious holiness. If they argue that he
is very merciful, that will not give a sense of his glorious grace and
mercy. It must be a more immediate, sensible discovery that must give
the mind a real sense of the excellency and beauty of God. lie that sees
God, has a direct and immediate view of God’s great and awful
majesty, of his pure and beauteous holiness, of his wonderful and
endearing grace and mercy.
2d. There is a certain understanding
of his love, there is a certain apprehension of his presence. He that
beholds God, does not merely see him as present by his essence, for so
he is present with all, both godly and ungodly. But he is more
especially present with those whom he loves, he is graciously present
with them; and when they see him, they see him and know him to be so;
they have an understanding of his love to them; they see him from love
manifesting himself to them. He that has a blessed-making sight of God,
not only has a view of God’s glory and excellency, but he views it as
having a property in it; he sees God’s love to him; he receives the
testimonies and manifestations of that love.
God’s favour is
sometimes in Scripture called his face: Psal. cxix. 58. where it is
translated, “I entreated thy favour with my whole heart;†it is in
the original “thy face:†and God’s hiding his face, is a very
common expression to signify his withholding the testimonies of his
favour.
907To see God, as in the text, implies the sight of him
as glorious and as gracious; a vision of the light of his countenance,
both as it is understood of the effulgence of his glory, and the
manifestations of his favour and love. Edwards
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8976
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Forums / Main Forum / Admittedly A Trick Question ...
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on: June 07, 2006, 04:18:16 AM
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John 1
14.
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory,
glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
18. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
1.
His conception; which was in the womb of one of the race of mankind,
whereby he became truly the Son of man, as he was often called. He was
one of the posterity of Adam, a child of Abraham, and a son of David,
according to God’s promise. But his conception was—not in the way of
ordinary generation, but—by the power of the Holy Ghost. Christ was
formed in the womb of the Virgin, of the substance of her body, by the
power of the Spirit of God. So that he was the immediate son of the
woman, but not the immediate son of any male whatsoever; and so was the
seed of the woman, and the son of a virgin, one that had never known
man.
2. His birth.—Though the conception of Christ was
supernatural, yet after he wa
| 8984
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Forums / Main Forum / Does Intelligence And Understanding Add?
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on: June 05, 2006, 07:15:18 PM
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There
is a difference between being personal on a forum and having a
relationship in real life. Maybe i do go out on a limb alot here that i
probably wouldnt if you were standing in front of me. I have noticed
that there are people who form oppinions of me based apoun my love for
calvinsim. I kinda have some goals here and it is very hard to find a
balance between growing in knowlege and getting along for the sake of
getting along.
I like reading youalls post and get to laughing
alot. I just do not have the time these days and its hard to get to know
a person on the internet. Its hard to talk about doing since if you
discribe all that you are doing you will seem like a bragger. I am not
sure any one here is depicted in a real way. The truth is Jeffery
personally no one knows any one here. Unless you know someone personally
in real life. I know a few people personally here because they were in
my life years ago. But i am so unsure in so many areas as to who
everyone is. I think we need to keep these two worlds seperate in our
minds. Frankly i do not get all worked up about someone dissagreeing
with me because in my mind i have placed this as only as i am known that
it will it affect me. I cant understand people getting worked up in
this impersonal way.
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s conceived, his human nature was gradually
perfected in the womb of the virgin, in a way of natural progress; and
so his birth was in the way of nature. But his conception being
supernatural, by the power of the Holy Ghost, he was both conceived and
born without sin.
| 8993
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Forums / Main Forum / Do You Believe In Free Will?
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on: June 03, 2006, 08:13:01 AM
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The only thing, IMHO you have to retain
from the Free Will argument is that if man has no choice whatsoever in
what he does and what happens to him he is not guilty of anything. God
is.
There are a
couple of explanations that i need to make in order for my postion to be
potrayed as accurate. First man had a free will at one time and chose
to become a sinner. Man is fully responsible by falling into sin in the
garden.
When I talk about freedom to choose the only loss of
freedom in man after the garden is to chose salvation in Christ. The
areas of personal likes and dislikes man does choose in freedom. Maybe
not in the freedom that you are putting forth here, that is your
obsession with man having a self determined choice.
This
doesn’t rally make sense. God gives man the ability to accept or
reject something which He freely offers. The choice to offer salvation
is God’s, the choice to accept or reject is man’s.
If
God gives man the ability to choose between salvation and damnation
then God gives man the ability to choose salvation since God chooses to
give man a choice to choose salvation. Like wise if God gives man the
ability to choose damnation then God chooses to give man the choice to
choose damnation. But the bible says that we are headed for hell from
our birth. We are already in the state of death before we choose it. I
have never seen that ability to choose between salvation and damnation
since all those who are damned showed no ability to choose salvation. Do
you see what i am saying now? And all those who are saved showed that
ability to chose salvation and not damnation. This is why it is
impossible for man to have a self determined choice because in reality
that really is no choice at all.
Willingly allowing
someone to exercise freedom or choice is not an absolute loss of
control. Allowing your child to choose what to wear , or accept Christ,
or to pursue an interest is not a loss of control if it is freely given.
Don’t you understand that?
Freedom of choice is being
able to choose one thing over another for myself. Choice always involves
preference and a greater desire for one thing rather than the other.
Free Choice is not having an equal desire for two objects at the same
time. Thats not choice and thats not freedom, thats nothing. God has
created everything for a purpose. The maker always has a purpose in what
he creates. Gods purposes cannot be thwarted. If they could then
someone elses purpose could thwart Gods purposes.
It’s not
really like that exactly - ‘in my thinking’. They chose the
consequences of rejecting God’s offer of salvation. It’s not the
same as saying God chooses to send them to hell. If a parent says to
their son or daughter, I will support you if you go to school but you
are on your own if you drop out, they do not choose the consequences the
child will experience, the child does.
That there is still an
‘ultimate’ level of control on the parents part in the sense that
they decide what the options are, does not mean that there was no choice
on the childs part.
SO in this sense I affirm God’s sovereignty, but I feel that he built ‘possibility’ and ‘choice’ into creation.
First we choose to go against what God says because we are sinners.
We do not choose to sin based apoun our freedom to choose. Obviously
Adam was the most free human being to ever walk this earth. But when He
fell into sin he was in absolute bondage. If Adam had an equal desire to
choose between good and evil in the garden then his sorroundings would
have been what caused him to sin. In an equal state of choosing between
good and evil , then something must have tipped the scales, and that
would have been the beauty of the object. So then in a perfect state as
Adam was in the objects would have been more appealing to him than in
his fallen state under your definition of freedom. You are saying that
its better for Adam to be in the sinful state that in the perfect state
when you place the object as the reason for drawing the choice out. I
would say tthat you are paint a picture that is the opposite of freedom.
We
do not choose evil because of a situation we find ourselves in or
because the beauty of an object. We choose evil because we are evil.
‘Imputation of sin’ is a sticky subject and not universally
accepted. Not surprisingly it is most often spoken about by Calvinists.
Cursing a persons descendents and declaring people guilty of something
they didn’t do is kind of immoral. It’s primitively warlike. It’s
like saying all muslims are guilty of 911, and should and will be
punished. It’s crude thinking. I haven’t done the necessary research
to debate you on this from a scriptural standpoint however. But it
sounds stupid to me
It
sounds stupid because of your view of a self determined will. Which is
really no will at all. The point is in personal responsibility the
persons intrinsic desire is the reason for the action. The desire to sin
comes from a sinner. What you are saying is that its important for man
to have a choice between good and evil and for him to be able to
determine that choice in himself. But if i determine to choose something
and then choose it is the same thing as saying i choose one thing over
another based apoun my liking of that particular object. The reason i
like one thing over another is because of the state of my soul at the
time of my choosing. I dont choose to sin by determining to sin, thats
not a choice. I choose to sin because i am a sinner.
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