7171	Forums / Main Forum / Would Jesus Defend A Child?	on: August 20, 2007, 04:33:56 PM
How a society treats children is the evidence of how much common grace is left. Thats why Christ say suffer the little children to come unto me for such is the kingdom of God. Gods desire is for the helpless and the needy. And the children are held up as the example of the kind of attitude of a new convert. Because the kind of attitude children display in that innocent trust is what is needed for us to possess in order for us to be humble enough to accept God at His word. We are like little children in our dependence on the Father. We are to cry Abba, Father or daddy , daddy. In a child s world is a lack of the knowledge of sin, and a harmlessness in relation to committing sin like a dove. It is as we become adults that we experience the majority of declining in our child like trust because we remember that we remember ourselves in the equation of salvation. And it is looking at the child like trust in which he has no worries about what daddy will do because the child does not believe there is anything out there that can overpower daddy. A child displays in a good way blind trust. The only object that is foremost in the mind of a child is pleasing daddy. Children do not need to be worried about their needs being met because in their little world they do not experience a work reward system. They are totally dependent on daddy bringing in the food, so they are not selfishly worried about the provision. They really depend on daddy for their needs. Gods ways are these ways for all of us.
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7172  Forums / Main Forum / Common Sense... on: August 19, 2007, 05:43:17 AM I agree with you PC. Maybe its a generational thing? We are so focused on being perfect that we take on entirely too much of the worlds thinking. Is it really about following practical advice? Is every thing narrowed down to simple steps? Or are we just killing ourselves with legal conviction? No one keeps the law anyway. Christ died to free us from the law as a school master. We are to set our thoughts on things above not on the things of this world. God will take care of us. You cant cover over a multitude of sins in a this legal environment so that the sin is always pointing out the sin.  Maybe the legal mentality is just a smoke screen so that people do not have to give of themselves for others and expect nothing in return. If there is one practical principle that this kind of thinking leaves out is \"You ve always got to step back and look at the big picture.\" Reply Quote Notify

7173  Forums / Main Forum / What Is Spiritual Rape? on: August 17, 2007, 04:47:31 PM Quote I would define the term as when someone, for their own personal power and gain, uses religion and the fear of God to manipulate and use and control others.  Which, in my opinion, is a far more heinous taking of God's name in vain than using the \"G.D.\" expression. Ive been thinkin about this definition as it is explained in modern physiological terms, and i think that the definition is not really complete. I mean isn t it that we must give up our own lives and not just the control speech , for Jesus and other people? And i guess with this standard only Jesus did not spiritually rape a person. Reply Quote Notify

7174  Forums / Main Forum / Obscurity.... on: August 17, 2007, 12:52:53 PM Quote PC that's becuase nobody really cares about stuff like that...but I do..You just float it out there and see if your own isolation of observations can be realted too.. If not you move on.. now sex and dating and wondering if porn is really bad or if I was a agnostic with hopes of saving..now your talking a great subject..I'm not interested in any of those things but hey..the forum kind of moves to it's own interest...at least we know what they are now.. I think in here there is a appeal to lack of... lack of faith, direction, hope, or whatever.... but having a concluded observation for review about it very social impact isn't very popular.. It's not that I'm totally sold on it..just want to compare findings..but hey what are you gonna do? scored a hit with the mega church one..got some great debate even some e-mails.. woo hoo!! I thought the postitve/ negative thread was the most intersting thread of all I've seen in here by patrick..the directions it took.. Peace RR I agree with you. I enjoy reading your post there . RR. Now can i get my 200 for passing go?   Reply Quote Notify

7175  Forums / Main Forum / Anybody Here Want A Donut? on: August 17, 2007, 12:46:24 PM Quote PC doesn't want a donut. Polly want a cracker?   Reply Quote Notify

7176  Forums / Main Forum / Anybody Here Want A Donut? on: August 17, 2007, 12:25:30 PM I wish salvation was as eating a donut, but its more like receiving a gift out of a desperate state. We really cant even reach out to eat the donut. We are too weak in ourselves. We are really like the people who are caught in the complete darkness in the earth in a very small space of darkness. And we are only alive physically. But we cannot escape unless we are given the ability to escape. And i do hope this comes about in the Utah. But we are so weak physically we could not even claw our way out of that place. We are totally dependent upon another to get us out. Its not like we can meet the drill half way. We are not able.We are in complete darkness and our salvation will only be accomplish when the hand of someone else pierces through the cave so that we experience our first glimmer of light. But yet we are too weak unless we get the spiritual food lowered down to us. It must be administered by another.Unless we get that food administered by someone else we cannot even get into the cage lowered down into the hole. It really is all of grace. Reply Quote Notify

7177  Forums / Main Forum / The Dying Art Of Debate. on: August 14, 2007, 08:34:42 PM In understanding who we are we must have a complete reversal of our inclinations to be disengaged our fallen sense in our original condition as sinners. This is the apologia of God dependence. The origin of wholeness in man starts with hearing Gods call \"Adam, adam where are you?\" From the beginning God has sought after man, but man in his blindness has turned away from Gods general call and thus has remained in his sin. There is an original divine knowledge that man needs in order for Gods saving call to be responded to. When man ate of the fruit he became a sinner.The  act of eating against Gods word was the evidence that man became corrupted. In that carnal knowledge man was blinded to who he became. He lost the understanding of who he was. When God came calling man was hiding. The way to the remedy was to acknowledge the sin, the act, and then to acknowledge the state of sinfulness. But in the state of sin man short circuits this application to return to God as a sinner. Man will acknowledge that he does the things wrong but man fails to see that it is much deeper than the outward acts. Mans first response was to hide his sin, and clothe himself with his own way of dealing with sin. Ever since the fall man has not wanted to acknowledge that he was in a state of sin and was totally depraved. And yet God has made the way back to Himself by going the way of acknowledging our sinful state. Man loves to confess the sins he does, but when it gets to where he must admit that he likes to sin because he is a sinner from birth man lives in deception. And it is because the world lives in this short circuited thinking that all of mans self righteousness keeps him from coming to God in his condition as he is. Adam blamed the woman, the woman blamed the serpent. The way to salvation was to acknowledge that he sin because he was a sinner. He fled because he was sinful from head to toe. And then you see this even in a believer. We have access to the throne of God. We are encouraged to come to him just as we are as believers. But there is this wall that has been erected by our being still in the state of sin. We feel guilty for the sins we do, but we hold onto the same thinking that adam and eve focused on. We think that because we sinned we are sinners, but Gods method of apologia is that when we look at our sins, we must go to our original state in Adam. Our spiritual life is dependent on seeing this connection. It is the life line God has given us so that when we feel the wall of our corruption erected before us going to Him in prayer, we will not loose confidence because we know that we sin because we are sinners. David in ps 51 connected this in his confession. It was the reason that he was able to experience the depth of love and forgiveness that he came out of in that confession. David felt like we all do as unworthy to enter the presence of God because of our sins. But David obeyed Gods voice of the Adamic call and acknowledged that he sinned because he was a sinner from birth. It was the way in which david entered the throne room of God. This is the first argument for mans moral deli ma. We must make this connection or we will build our own ways to get forgiveness.   Reply Quote Notify

7178  Forums / Main Forum / The Dying Art Of Debate. on: August 13, 2007, 06:50:43 PM I am reminded that there is nothing new under the sun. I am 49 and have watch the political debates ever since i can remember. To me its just watching the same old same old. The only value is maybe an exercise in logic of what ever argument there is in the presentation and the counter. In the forums we just need to say what we believe, and then leave it at that. Few of us have been to debate classes, except i think Onetake . I like a long drawn out, detailed back and forth on a thread. And i am going to answer Lrx, but have been doing a little more in prayer and meditation. So at this time my presence here is going to be sporadic. I am not really happy rite now.   Reply Quote Notify

7179	Forums / Prayer Requests / For Our Mbg	on: August 13, 2007, 02:59:48 PM
Pray for me, things are falling down around me. Yet i haven t been this single minded in a long time. I am sensing a real season of deep prayer. I am impassioned. 7181  Forums / Steve Brown Etc. / Anger At Church on: August 11, 2007, 06:43:42 PM Quote Quote I believe in spiritual warfare by experience. But in the bible you never see men pitted against demons. Thats Gods territory. I agree that all of the fighting is from a spiritual source, but we do not have the knowledge as to what is physiological , what is demonic and what is a predicament of a person being in a situation were they just need a little love and attention to their needs. Most of the time its from a lack of personal attention in the lives of the people that brings about these little cliques. If we just go for the preaching where the preacher has his little ditty and the people give their money and time on sunday without following any of the biblical mandates for relationships then it is not really a very healthy church. Its more of a mental thing than a demon thing. Christ has given us all power to overcome Satan through the only offensive weapon we have and that is His word, but the use of the word is an indirect approach to standing against the devil. It doesnt have magic potions but by communicating the assurances, promises, and will of God , we are enabled to stand. MBG... I would assume from your post that you've never been face to face with the demonic? I think Men pitted against Demons, perhaps not in hand to hand combat, but certainly Jesus himself, as well as his disciples, went toe to toe with demons that were opressing, and possessing people. When Demons are posessing a person, it is, in most cases anyway, overtly evident. I have come in contact with a number of (I think 4) demon possessed people. Below is an account I had that I beleive you read in another thread. Quote I was involved in a homeless outreach a few years back in Florida. One night, while I sat witnessing to a young man who had just become homeless a gal did something very unusual. She was sitting on the bench across the sidewalk from us. She has got her street rip weave on, all the sudden, she sits upright, becomes completely lucid, and calls me out. "You no good mother****er! I know you! You aren't a real Christian! I know what you think about when you are laying in bed at night! I know what you want to do to that girl on the front row in church!" So, I says, silence in the name of Jesus! She shuts up. Now here's the thing, sex, getting the girls, you know, bein a playah' was a big part of my persona for a very long time, and lust was always, and still is my biggest issue. My pastor's daughter at the time was a stone cold knockout. Gorgeous everything. I remember singing in the choir looking at her thinking about what she would look like bent over, etc. And it seemed no matter how hard I fought it, I couldn't help myself when those thoughts would come. This demon was telling on me. "the accuser of the brethren." Later, I get some of my friends, and we go over and put our hands on her and begin to pray. She started hollering and kinda warblin. It was like we were stabbing her with red hot pokers or something. She starts spewing profanity, I mean stringing combos together I have never heard before. The she starts getting all contorted until she ends up with her head almost under her right leg while she is down on all fours. Finally she screams really loud once, and falls limp on the sidewalk. She came to a few minutes later having soiled herself and p.issing her pants, looking around like: "what the hell happened." This demon was there with the very pointed and particular intent of ratting me out, and trying to discourage me. Demons are mind control creatures, not only in our minds, but they can plant thoughts, or inflame attitudes to control the minds of others to manipulate us into discouragement, or disenchantment. The story above was a prfect example. I have, indeed, gone against demons, so yes, men do. MBG, I am not a freakshow Christian who believes that there is a Demon under everyone's doormat. However, I have seen the reality of the enemies schemes up close, and face to face. Eric P.S. Am I to understand correctly that you were basically saying my wife was trying to get attention by acting like she was? Satan s chief design is to attack Christ and our trusting in Him. He does this by attacking our world view. If He can make us trust in religion, then He will upset our inward peace. The purpose of our lives is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. The more we bring glory to God in how we think and act(not perfectly)the more we will enjoy Him forever. In todays world satan uses men and these groups of different teachings to get us to trust in men rather than God. If we do not trust in God alone then we will not glorify God. He uses these different theological camps to get us to be anxious when we are alone. The purpose of our faith is to know the person of Christ. And just like the American society of a working democracy, that common graciousness is like an automatic social network of checks and balances that lull us to sleep. It is the same with our attention to the different theological camps. Every religious cat call today is about what works in our relationships with others. Every denomination today has the seeds of lukewarmness especially the doctrinal ones. Satan has managed to get the entrenched part of the organization of the churches to look more like businesses rather than houses of prayer. And really the test of a persons church experience is the inward change that goes on in that person while he lives his life away from the church. When he is alone. What satan does today is get us to believe so much religion that we are always anxious. And He does this by getting us into a mindset that is good and moral but lacks spiritual understanding and insight. He will either get us to trust in our doctrine as an intellectual substitute for leading us to Christ, or He will get us to reject doctrine for religion. The way He does this is not through a circus atmosphere but though half truths and through guilt and legal works. If Satan can convince you that Christ is not enough, but you need to listen to so and so. Then you will develope a unhealthy attachment to a specific group and you will not enjoy the rejoicing and trust in the alone times.  7183  Forums / Main Forum / We Must Believe That He Is.. on: August 11, 2007, 11:04:59 AM Quote I think another factor is trust. I say something in my mind like.\" You better come thru for me.\" \"I can't handle another disappointment.\"\"This isn't going the way I intended. Where are you?\"\"Why did you make me like this?\" by the time God found me I had my bent ways in pretty good order. My superfantasticnevergethurtagain security system was well in place. I think what fascinates me about the Bible most of all is that it doesnt hide my nature. My biggest wrestling match is not sin on the surface..but I wonder if it's my obedience in this trust of God's ultimate goodness.If I won't perceive that I begin to look frantically for an easing of the void and darkness of the dull ache inside. When I come to the Lord in prayer I do not have any doubt of His power... my struggle is His willingness......towards me I'm so complex in fallen mind sets that I actually doubt the willingness....so I use long explanations with many words and quick options of \"if it be your will..\" My daughter certainly doesn't have ay problem asking for things..they are quick and to the point! Now being a Christian for 20+ years I've heard so many messages on how to get God understood or figuring out His will etc... Some look like they got it down based on the \"American\" standard of big ministries and successful TV programs..$$$$$ I think for me anyway..it's in the earnest seeking for Him. I know He's right there but it's the seeking into His being and spirit. We are hidden in Him. Which makes me think that it He has to be sought out. Not hidden to hide but to be found. That's what that restless feeling is. It's like I have peace and rest but I need to keep seeking too. On Thanksgiving of last year I felt that like never before.I went to Florida and began to seek. I wanted answers quickly.I needed to know a new will and direction. But the weirdest thing began to happen. I began to look at my family and realize that God's will is not far from understanding. Of course I was looking for something with a bit more of a personal perspective but that's just it. I'm a Dad, and I'm a son And I'm a husband. and I'm a friend, I'm yours God....have I committed my best efforts to these? not to feel condemned because I could easily fall short in those areas...but then when the realization of those things as His will became clear..I found what I was looking for one morning. I'm not a morning person by any imagination.I do not like morning. But there it was. Clear as the sun rising over the swamp and palm trees of the backyard. In a moments notice as the smell of toast and bacon and eggs filled the villa..thoughts of, \" you've tried this before\", \"I don't know..\" \"Maybe this is just your desire and passion speaking\", \"How are you going to do this?\" rushed in.. I kept looking for confirmation in all the wrong places....a neon sign from heaven would have been nice... but that's just it...\"easy\"..\"safe\"..there is no easy button...keep seeking, keep asking.... why??..  because I can... The flesh is so strong when it's feeling of familiarness is so close to me. the unknown uncharted waters of going after a dream or God's best is terrifying at times..but as I found out on a balmy November morning... when staying with the familiar becomes more terrifying...there's going to be action taken. Peace RR The only thing i would say is that we see light in His light. We cannot will or desire enough to know what His absolute will and desire is for us. We will always come away frustrated in this life. We are caught in between the sorrow of sin and the joys of eternal life, and yet in this experience we are on a certain path that God has designed from eternity. The thing we have confidence in is not our figuring out Gods will in a perfect sense, because that will lead us to despair, but to understand that He  has joy and pleasure is beyond our ability to understand, it is greater than our existence can handle so that we will experience a  certain view of His glory but yet will never be satisfied. Our path is not a path of perfection, but a path of conceding to His absoluteness even tho we cannot experience the full effects nor understand what He has for us being beyond what we can comprehend. His bigness should consume our frustration. Ok i got to go on here. If you live in His bigness then you will experience the voices of the world that says\" He trust in God , let God deliver him.\" And in a sense reality is the calls from the darkness of irrational suicide being subdued by the absolute power of Gods glory. Man is fearful enough in himself to concede to the threats of irrationally unless he begins to experience a power beyond his finite powers. And it is in God, in His all consuming love and faithfulness that we gain confidence in the face of death and destruction. We must be raised up in our thinking to see Gods power, we must increase in understanding of being under the influence of that power, so that the Holy Spirit can be  all consuming in our world of the inward reality of our intentions, loves and hopes. We can trust God because there is no circumstance that can make us be 7187  Forums / Steve Brown Etc. / Anger At Church on: August 10, 2007, 09:11:11 PM I believe in spiritual warfare by experience. But in the bible you never see men pitted against demons. Thats Gods territory. I agree that all of the fighting is from a spiritual source, but we do not have the knowledge as to what is physiological , what is demonic and what is a predicament of a person being in a situation were they just need a little love and attention to their needs. Most of the time its from a lack of personal attention in the lives of the people that brings about these little cliques. If we just go for the preaching where the preacher has his little ditty and the people give their money and time on sunday without following any of the biblical mandates for relationships then it is not really a very healthy church. Its more of a mental thing than a demon thing. Christ has given us all power to overcome Satan through the only offensive weapon we have and that is His word, but the use of the word is an indirect approach to standing against the devil. It doesnt have magic potions but by communicating the assurances, promises, and will of God , we are enabled to stand. Reply Quot overcome by the irrational force from those who say  \"he trust in God, let God deliver him.\" 7190  Forums / Main Forum / We Must Believe That He Is.. on: August 08, 2007, 08:47:14 PM Quote it is finished..... well that's what I heard when I came to the Lord. I didn't even have a great handle on sin..but that came eventually.. I think it's very difficult to imagine that it is finished. We are covered by the blood and now have complete access to the throne. I know that is really hard to grasp. But it's not on us or anything we bring. He loves us more than we love our earthly children. That's hard to grasp too. But imagine how hard it must be for Him to not have us believe that. That's faith. That's the core I believe. I try so hard to figure out mysteries of all kinds and deep theological points and spiritual warfare when this alone isn't even in the same ballpark. If I could just believe this fully all the time what wouldn't I do? what courage would I lack? what wouldn't be possible? how could I not be humbled..? So I wrestle with stupid fears and negative thoughts about myself and low esteem for what? Probably becasue I can. I think their mine so I think they are familar..it's known territory.. But I was bought with a price. I bring nothing to the table. Acts 17:28 for in Him we live and move and have our being..   I agree, and i think we all live in this world of tension. With the fear, and the other unexplainable ungraspable qualities. Our experience of pain in these paradigms are His working in us to will and to do. It seems that there is a silver lining in some of the desperation we experience as a result of our weak faith. How can we change these morbid miranderings  and find a straiten highway of joy, love and His sweet assurances to our hearts? Wallowing in sin seems to create the same morbid existence, so that we feel as tho we remain in the uncertain world of combating the flesh. If we could get to a place where we could rest from the bottom of our souls, and feel the cool springs from Gods beautiful heavenly rivers then we would be more confident in this life. And yet He has given us this paradigm shift in Himself. We can increase our in ness in Him. If we are under that sweet protection then our rejoicing will be beyond our understanding of His pain killing streams. At some point the confidence we feel in HIm is supernaturally effected in time to us by a supernatural illumination in Him speaking these words in moving over our souls. Such longings for Him would be so increased that our desires would be consumed by His. I think this is the experience as a result of the Psalms. Reply Quote Notify 7191  Forums / Main Forum / We Must Believe That He Is.. on: August 08, 2007, 07:55:19 PM Praying is equivalent to your being able to understand the scripture and doctrine with experiencing His presence. If we are going to go to our Father then in order to be confident we must have a good knowledge of what we have been given, and how He has worked out the salvation process as it relates to our assurance. Then we must have a protection of our heads or our minds in the day of evil. In order to protect our minds we must have a good understanding of the doctrines. Because God has revealed Himself in a spoken word, that word to us in the scriptures is His speaking to us in our praying. In other words we must experience God in His word. And in experiencing Him speaking to us we will learn what our needs are and how much we have in the access of prayer to meet those needs.  As these three paradigms are developed in our lives we will increase in our understanding of those things that are unseen, and we will depend less in our communication to God of those things that we see. In pray we go into an eternal world of the paradigm of beyondness. When we go into prayer we learn that Gods view of the events that transpire in our lives are far more valuable than what we believe we can understand. As we develop in this smallness of focus, we will learn that God is so big that His nearness to answering our petitions is simplistic. 7198  Forums / Steve Brown Etc. / Anger At Church on: August 02, 2007, 12:25:15 PM Sometimes i like light worshipful music. But the question is how much time do i have in this life to waste on sentimental lyrics. The way of religious propagation is through the mind first. So that the depth of the experience is measured by the constant exposure to depth of knowledge . The lessening of spiritual knowledge creates a vacuum in human experience for a need in the soul for the knowledge of acceptance without the superiority of the divine weight of glory that is only experienced as a result of the level of understanding of the divine. So that the depth is at the level of the understanding of the ways of God. The orchestra is not merely instrumental but is the activity of the Spirit in a multi faceted way moving on the soul in the fiat of the depth of that knowledge. In understanding the ways of God we are brought under the power of that spiritually orchestrated music that moves as an unseen renewal of divine creation, causing us to withdraw from human invention to understand these ways of supernaturalism. Reply Quote Notify 7199  Forums / Main Forum / Mother Nature Vs. God on: August 02, 2007, 10:30:33 AM The origins of the universe and defining these paradigms are the building blocks for reasoning according to the origins of the souls cause of activity. Because man is darkened , his reasoning corrupts Gods glory of existence in His totality of space and time. We exist because God always existed and we are sustained because we are in God who is as close as working in every atom of existence and who is as powerful as ordering every event rite up to knowing the number of our hairs. If we responded with the wrong questions about the absoluteness of Gods glory, then it is as if we were creating a god of our own. We are so corrupted that we cannot fathom an absolute ability to hold to a knowledge that is within the paradigm of rite thinking because we exist in this corruption as well as being corrupted in our thinking. This knowledge outside of Gods intended perfect design is that idea of regeneration or the activity of renewal. Without the knowledge of sin there would be no need for reversal of anything. 7204  Forums / Theology Forum / Orthodoxy - Chesterton on: July 31, 2007, 08:19:00 PM The personal experience demands both the intellectual understanding of the doctrines and the spiritual experience in dealing with our ultimate struggle with the world the flesh and the devil. Just having an intellectual understanding of the doctrines only defines for us our ultimate object of who we rest in and who s we belong to. But there are these battles that we must go through in order to have an assurance that we are fully convinced and we are rejoicing in. What we ultimately are dealing here is with ideas that enter the mind and these ideas possess power. Our problems with these spiritual forces is that we do not identify them properly, or we do not understand the nature of these forces, or we do not understand our relationship to them being present in our corruption. First we need to see that we posses all of the corruption in our souls that define what these powers are.  So that they are present all of the time in us. Its not what goes into a man that makes him evil, but what comes out of him. But these powers in us are very real, and they create fear, anxiety, and helplessness , a deli ma that is familiar to our experience. Since we have been created by God to glorify and enjoy Him forever, we are unable to experience Him unless He reveals Himself to us in His word. So that we are created with an inability of experience that transpires as the Holy Spirit gains control of our hearts or He lust for control. So in a sense we experience a positive gain in being unable. So that in being dependent on the Trinity we are being renewed daily. We feel unable, we then turn to Christ and we find all we need. So that we also have these other powers of the world , flesh and devil that are to strong for us also. And this is where the deepness of this experience could divide our hearts. If we are thinking that we can overcome these powers by human effort, or trying to balance out the struggle with something we do, then we are not going to experience our created state of existence. Because God has made us dependent on Him. And just as we are unable in ourselves to experience Gods power, that is we need to depend upon His revelation and His giving us new life, a renewed spirit and keeping us by His grace, so we are unable to fight these spiritual battles in ourselves. We feel unable to overcome these things because we are made to depend on God to cause us to rest in Christ work to overcome them. We need an answer to feeling under the weight of the world the flesh and the devil. Christ has provided the answer for our feeling powerless. He answers our cries for help in this battle against forces that are too strong for us. When we feel that there are things that are too strong for us, we begin to get an understanding of the nature of dependence because we are identifying our created position as unable. He made us to go through this realization process so that we would know Him personally in His transferring peace and assurance to answer those things that are coming up in us that are too strong for us. When we cry to Him, and we experience His peace that passes all understanding we are becoming fully aware of His power in us.  This is no way is to lessen the importance of God's soverign work in our lives. For even the desire to please God comes from Him. And yet we can harden our hearts to His word and become like the unproductive soils in the parable of the sower and the seed. Thanks Bill, I believe that we are obligated , that our faith is the cause of our being blessed, but not the condition. And my problem with the present day explanation of the the doctrine of justification by faith with the emphasis on the will shifts the paradigms of biblical interpretation and puts the causal ,conditional and instrumental usages with faith into darkness. Basically we have salvation as a gift, faith as a gift, and a new will is a gift. Salvation is all of grace, and from God alone. He is the cause of salvation, and it is conditioned upon His will not ours. If we put salvation back into the hands of God, then our hardness of heart will not overcome His saving process in us. We will persever in the end because all of salvation is conditioned upon His keeping us. If you go strictly from the exegetical interpretation of scripture, then the reformers order of salvation along with the 5 points puts these concepts into their proper usage with the grammar. Man is dead in sins and trespasses, because in order for there to be life there must be a cause in man. The cause is God, as the same with the first creation. You look at the universe and you conclude that someone had to create this because of the evidence of living things. Something needs to be there before something exist.  So that no matter how we talk about freedom, or the liberty of the will, we must start with God. If we start with any thing, or other person, or nothing, we put all ideas of reality of persons into darkness. The first institution of order is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. Our first newness of experience is God as the cause of all things and God as the cause in the purpose of all things in the universe existing from their beginning to their end. All other concepts of truth are irrational. Here's how I view it. Man was not created fundamentally flawed, unless you choose to view being created with a will/ability to choose as a flaw. Man was placed in a perfect environment with the opportunity to enjoy fellowship with God forever. Man was created good, He had no evil intentions. Man was not in need of the favor of God. He was made to glorify God without any complications. The freedom man enjoyed in the garden was not the equilibrium view of free will. Man only desired good. Everything that God created in the garden was good. It was pronounced good by God just prior to the fall. If the environment was the cause of the bad choice then God would be to blame since what He created caused man to fall. We would then conclude that the beauty of the objects in the garden was worse than the post fall environment being of greater temptation. That would not be logical. If man was only inclined to doing good then why did he choose the evil? That is a mystery. How can there be no evil intent in man and man follow evil? There was nothing in man that would cause him to choose evil. If there was no evil in man then man was not evil. If there was a flaw in man then man stood in need of grace. But there was no grace prior to the fall since man was able to keep the law. Remember that after the fall man is a sinner because he is inclined to sin or he sins because he is a sinner. But pre fall man was good. So he would only have cause to choose good. I believe that we are not able to understand the first choice made between good and evil. Its impossible for something to come from nothing. 7210  Forums / Main Forum / Fear Is A Sickness. on: July 24, 2007, 10:09:10 PM Everyone lives with fear. But the levels of fear are different. Fear is good  if it is toward the rite object. Since we are all different and we struggle with different combinations of anxieties i believe that every fear is a little different in different people since it is mixed with a different formulation of corruption. Fear is also passed on in somewhat the same way in families.Deep levels of fear possibly could be related to genetics and the brain. But good fear is a healthy reverence for God. Because God is a jealous God that kind of relational sense must be understood through getting to know God through Christ as we come to the Father. And God being a jealous God is for our good, because if God were to share His authority with anyone we could never be saved from hell. We could never be confident in being justified so that we are thankful that God will judge each man according to His works because we know that the main protection we have is that God is God alone so that He has already done all of the acceptable works because He alone was the only one who could do them, and He has imputed that righteousness to us. Boy am i thankful God is a jealous God otherwise if He shared righteousness with me then i would be most miserable and my understanding of His forgiveness would be without a proper fear of Him being a jealous God. This kind of respect for Christ is what all our trust in Him is known to us, and our understanding of His protection of His own is wrapped up in this respect. If you learn to fear God, then you will love Him more and more. 7224  Forums / Main Forum / Witnessing To Children on: July 23, 2007, 02:07:53 PM We got to think in terms of children being like soft clay. They are easily molded. All of us have been in that childhood stage where we have been set in a mold so that as we get older it becomes the direction of life that we take. The longer we live the harder it becomes to change directions. Thats why most salvations come in the early years of life. At some point in ones life there is this looking back paradigm, when things have settled down and being responsible for our own passes as we go into our golden years. A child has a very active imagination. Children can have a very high view of God, if they are catacized properly. There are some children who can experience a profound sense of Gods presence. If we focus on the doctrines of grace in a way that is balanced and not some kind of guilt trip or an over emphasis a certian theology then i think that the more we expose children to the catacism (WCF) the better able they will be in understanding the ways of God in their later years. Look at the book of proverbs, look at the history of learning in the early 1900s and before and look at the age of the kings in the OT. There was an intense early learning process in the child years so that it was at the point of when the heart was soft that led to a much earlier maturity in the historical education of children. If a child is sitting on the lap of a wise man, then he will be wiser still. Because God has made man to be seekers of wisdom, He has given man a desire to know spiritual knowledge. The wise teacher will teach the child the fear of God ,or the way to know the fear of God by searching day and night in the knowledge of God. It would be better than gold more precious that rubies, and in that intense teaching would lead a man to stay away from the adultreous. But seeking is a discipline that is learned early. If a child learns the value of the law of God by his constantly being brought before his mind then He will find life. And life is eternal life, the kind of life that increases as one seeks God. When we begin to have that kind of seeking we begin to have a profound understanding of the deep things of God. A child learns to ech a pathway of seeking day and night by his being exposed to the law of God and His being under the divine power of wisdom, the divine revealed way of gaining knowledge. And it is in these years where we teach children the value of doctrine as well as the way of meditation on the word. Because we must mine for the gold of Gods revelation, we must seek it from a heart that has been molded by being exposed to it over and over again. What that process does is it begins to put a person on the rite path, the path of pleasure and spiritual riches that are stronger and more powerful than any thing the world can offer. It is in the young years when the heart is still and soft that these lessons of the greatness of God and the understanding of His voice are taught most. There is sorta a secret to avoid carnality, or the seeking of the natural man. There is this intense struggle of secularism with evolutionary paradigms that cause much grief in this way seeking. Because the natural man wants to seek for the things of this world. From our earliest age we see children being taught to seek for presents, seek for easter eggs, seek for visual stimulation, seek for things, and seek for earthly approval. The seeking is what replaces the very ways of wisdom. The ways of wisdom are spiritual ways, they are paths of peace. This way is not to be equal to the ways of the natural man. The ways of God are the ways of understanding, so that a man is gaining insights into his own heart. And in seeking after wisdom, we are seeking a voice that will speak to our hearts. It will speak words of life that will guard our hearts so that we will always want to go back to the place where that voice of revelation has entered and revealed life to us. But if we are taught to seek after the things of this world then we will have wasted our lives in vain and useless things. We will have not known the mind of wisdom and understood the paths of peace and life. We would know the voices of misery , being fimilar with the wealth that brings no satisfaction to the soul. But the ways of God are ways of wisdom. The rubies are His revealed knowledge. Each time we go to His word we get new revealing to our hearts and we are changed into His image by being exposed to His glory. We look at Christ, and we thank God that we have not learned the ways of the natural man. We thank God that He has put us on the path of seeking after the real riches. This is the intersection of every man born in this world, and it starts in what we seek when we are just kids. 7231  Forums / Theology Forum / Orthodoxy - Chesterton on: July 21, 2007, 03:33:08 PM Every man has forgotten who he is. One may understand the cosmos, but never the ego; the self more distant than any star. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God; but thou shalt not know thyself. We are all under the same mental calamity; we have all forgotten our names. We have all forgotten what we really are. All that we call common sense and rationality and practicality and positivism only means that for certain dead levels of our life we forget that we have forgotten. All that we call spirit and art and ecstacy only means that for one awful instant we remember that we forget. If we love Christ then we abandoned self. And because we belong to Him we have forgotten who we are. But the temptation is to focus on some other idol of importance, some other philosophy of life , which brings us back to realizing that we had forgotten that we had forgotten. And all the pleasure in our lives in our imagination only brings us back to remembering that we had forgotten. And really what is this awful fairytale but a shallow view of life.  All of the imaginations in this world compared to heaven are but a dream. The object of our thankfulness is our imagination of the dreams of this life. And yet this mindset is easily shattered by the dragons. So that its best for us to give up ourselves for Christ knowing that if we had forgotten the reality is we need to keep forgetting. Because the more heaven breaks into our imagined remembrance of forgetting the more we are going to live in the reality of life.