There are within some christian circles an understanding that there is
nothing for believers to do. Its all done. I agree with that with regard
to our salvation. Yet it seems there is an expectation of effort to be
applied as we go along our way. I think we are expected to study the
word, do good works, pray, etc.
Below are some examples of the use of
the word "effort". Would those verses indicate that while we are
empowered to do things by the Holy Spirit, that there seems to be an
indication we must make a willful choice to do at least some things?
Such as the examples below?
1. Romans 14:19
Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.
2. Ephesians 4:3
Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.
3. Hebrews 12:14
Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
4. 2 Peter 1:5
For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;
Jeffery
here is where i think when we get down to the details of the scripture i
have a different take as the what our responsiblity is and what Gods
work in us is or what extent the Holy Spirits function in us is. The
bible does not say that we are to try to acheive a level of addition of
goodness on our own. The working principle in scripture on
sanctification is this. We are made new and are being made new by the
Holy Spirit. I kinda think that your theory is that the Holy Spirit does
something in us and then we are to do something too and so we
coroporate with the Holy Spirit.
There really is no human
cooperation in spiritual growth. Our goal is not to be more moral.
Instead of cooperation it is dependence. What your side fails to see is
that we are made completely righteous by a righteousness that is imputed
to our account, and our sinfulness is imputed on Christ. Here it is
never our personal discision that gets us into spiritual growth. It is
realizing that Christ met all the requirements of the law in that he was
actively obedient and passively obedient and He did what we could never
acheive in our descisions.
When ever you get to the commands
there is this working principle in all of it. We are righteous so that
what command we set out to do we never do it according to the standard
of Christ. We do the command because we have been given grace to do it.
So when we fail to do it properly both in our active obedience and our
passive obedience it is not a supprise or is it a complete failure on
our part. It is expected that we will fail by our inability to meet the
requirements of the command. Thats because we really do not lean on
ourselves to acheive a level of spiritual maturity. We only lean on
Christ.
So in Christ we meet all the requirements of the
commands. We are given grace and power to meet them. Tho we fall short ,
we are not performing to be accepted by God we are already accepted by
God even if we fail. Yet because God has graciously given us all of
these spiritual qualities that will be the reason we add to our faith.
Really you are creating an illussion if you think he is saying now that
you have been saved you must get to work. You must cooperate! No No no ,
you who have been given the Spirit are you now trying to obey the law
in the flesh? No no no.
Heres the problem with the wrong focus.
Here you have a church, and all the people who think they are doing good
deeds by performing, making a discision , following the script are
given presedence over the brother who is struggling with sin, falling ,
battling with temptation. In Gods church, the one who is poor in spirit
is more righteous than the one who thinks he is cooperating with God.
The one who is struggling should be the one who has presedence, and the
one who thinks he is cooperating should be warned of self righteousness.
Thats Gods paradigm.
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Forums / Main Forum / Those With Wives Living As Though They Had None?
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on: June 02, 2006, 02:53:46 PM
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There
are two things here. One is as Patrick said, the commandment is\" thou
shalt have no other gods before me.\" All i can think about is all the
bios about missionaries that sacrificed the closeness of a relationship
with their wives for the mission feild. Then there is Billy Graham too.
Really we as men can be lazy spiritually and be so tied down to all of
the demands of our relations that we crowd God out. I dont even think we
should think in terms of balancing all of these relationships with our
Father. We should choose to praise and worship God every moment in our
hearts and in our prayers so that we know what place others should have.
It
is so easy to place our wives in a position that God never intended
them to have. We really are responsible to God in that we should be
growing in our seeing with our spiritual eyes. We should not follow our
wives into sin or that sin or idol worship that so easily besets them.
We should be willing to regard these areas as distasteful to us. We are
to cast down every imagination and bring it into captivety to the
knowlege of God so that more and more we will have our hearts enlarged
so that our worship to Him will be supreme and profoundly experienced.
Paul warns that we will have trouble in the flesh in the marriage
relationship because of the obligations that we take on. Yes we are to
fulfill those obligations to our wives as an oath is not taken lightly
in Gods eyes. But we are also warned about having other gods. Look at
most of the ot saints whose wives led them astray through idolatry.
In
this day and age where we have so much relationship stuff out there, on
how to get along we should be aware that if our focus gets on how to
all the time then we may be duped into an such a profectionist system
that we worship at the altar of philosophy rather than giving God the
glory. As i see it if both partners are not seeking God on a daily basis
through prayer and scripture then one is going to lead the other astray
even if the relationship paradigm has all the t's crossed. Satan is
cunning and will use those closest to us to draw our hearts away from
our first love.
The second is being a leach to our wives. Trying
to get all of our acceptance from them. Drawing the very life blood from
them. Wearing them down so that they are so weary that they become
disheartend and unhappy. We should seek to be warmed in our Fathers love
so that we feel freed from the bonds of this earthly fleshly tie. All
the anxiety and worry we alow to control our thoughts is what is alowed
to enter our wives minds so that they are not protected but are exposed
to the most vile dispositions and will feel the weight of our
dependence. We should be men of great courage and prayer so that we know
all of the wiles of the devil who seeks to get our minds off of the
spiritual things and the hearts of our wives and kids and put them on
just meeting the physical needs and ignoreing the emotional needs. We
must be spiritually nurished in order for the weight of our disposition
to impact in our wives lives and kids lives.
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Forums / Main Forum / Seminary Entrance Pre Examination
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on: June 01, 2006, 09:56:22 PM
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You know what? I'll take some of that too. Linda
Marie has pastored more people who have some here hurting, comforted
them, come alongside and just El Shaddai-ed (one of the
definitions/translations is 'mother's breast', re: comforted) them than
any pastor in here regardless of the fact that she never references
possessing any 'files'. In fact, more than once she has comforted me actually while I have had my teeth sunk deeply into her buttocks. You know what? I have a topic to start..... What do you know?! Time travel!! Here's the link: Pastor Linda Marie!!!
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Forums / Main Forum / Do You Believe In Free Will?
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on: June 01, 2006, 07:23:14 PM
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God
is absolutely soveriegn because He is God. Man is responsible because
man chose to sin and fallen and fell. We are responsible in Adam.
If
man has the ability to choose to sin and fall he would conversely have
the ability to choose to accept Gods fee gift and be saved. Either he
has the <b>gift or ability, whatever you like</i> to choose
or he doesn’t. If he can’t choose he is not responsible.
God in
his sovereignty is entirely within his rights and power to provide man
with choice and free will. It doesn’t impact the status of his
sovereignty whatsoever. Converesely if He chooses to put certain people
to work or to make an example out of or whatever, He is sovereign and
can do what he wants.
This used to confuse me but I’m not sure I know what the hubbub is about anymore.
First
if God gives man the ability to choose within himself to be saved then
the ability is really a choice that God makes pryer to man choosing. So
there are some who are being judged in hell rite now. You can say that
God did not have the absolute control, but in your thinking God chose to
give a man free will pryer to man having free will and then God chooses
to send them to hell inspite of mans supposed free will. There is not
much difference in what you are saying and what i am saying.
If
man has a free will to choose salvation then why was he held responsible
for the sin which adam committed.The sin was actually imputed by God
pryor to man having to be responsible in himself in time. So the very
opposite of free choice existed in man pryor to being responsible in
that free choice in the age of accountability. If man is personally
responsible then why does he die for someone elses sin? The generation
that followed adam did not get to be held personally responsible for the
physical death state that they entered. It was chosen for them pryor to
their birth. Everyone will die no matter how good their personal
choices are. I am just using your free will arguement to prove that
there is some inconsistencies in it.
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Forums / Main Forum / Do You Believe In Free Will?
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on: June 01, 2006, 04:49:43 AM
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First
does this passage teach that man is not responsible? No it does not
teach that man is not responsible. We need to take all of the scriptures
on mans responsibliity and Gods soveriegnty. This passage is a literal
passage, in which we take it literal. We do not try to explain it away.
God
is absolutely soveriegn because He is God. Man is responsible because
man chose to sin and fallen and fell. We are responsible in Adam. The
truth is God could have judged Adam the moment he sinned and been just.
Then He could have judged all of Adams prosterity and been just. But God
chose before the creation of the world some people for Himself and sent
the rest to hell, because God is God. Unless we acknowlege that His
will takes precedence then we make His will subservient to our will and
then that makes us all little gods whom God is dependent on us. God is
not weak and unable and powerless to save. \"He does what He pleases in
heaven and on the earth.\" Ps
Man is born in sin with an ability
to chose what pleases him most. He can choose for himself and is fully
responsible for choosing what pleases him. But man is spiritually blind
because of his state in sin and cannot choose God. He does not see the
value in God. He has a consicience and He knows that God requires man to
respond to the requirements of the law but man cannot become righteous
in himself. Every time man hears the word of God taught or preached he
hardens his heart and will not submit or repent. The more man hardens
his heart the more he is greasing the wheels for his judgement. Rom.
1.21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor
gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish
hearts were darkened.
The only hope is for God to open mans
spiritual eyes to see the truth. The Holy Spirit comes in the preaching
of the word and turns the light on so that man can see the value of all
the spiritual things. When man is regenerated then man can turn to
Christ and believe. \"Salvation is by grace through faith and is not of
ourselves.\"
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Forums / Theology Forum / Change, "by God?"
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on: May 28, 2006, 08:39:07 AM
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Dipping
or whatever is simply behavior. Not all behaviors are sinful...and in
another context all behaviors CAN be sinful. Both Jesus and Paul said
it's the heart that matters:
I could not agree more. It is
the heart that matters. What I am saying is that we are obligated to
live as clean a life as possible. And since we are using my dipping as
the example. The reason that I am quiting is because I am
convicted of it. I am not sayng all that dip and smoke are sinners. I am
also not saying that because I am quitting, it is right for everyone
else to quit also. What I am saying is we as Christian, quite often pass
the buck. We use Jesus as an excuse saying, "I cant quit untill he
gives me power". Now, this is quite true, It is the Lord that gives us
the strength. What I think happens is that we (I) use urges and
temptings as a reason to do something, saying to myself "the Lord must
not have delivered me yet". But in reality, He has. It just takes more
effort and willpower on our part. The will power that HE put there.
Because it sure does not come from me. Make sense???
Take care
Jeff
please keep in mind I am using my life and assuming that others run into the same ruts.
I
am not sure that it is that simple Jeff. I mean we know that
appropriation is needed in every area of our lives. Yet some of us
struggle with different sins at different times. It is sometimes a
mystery as to why we struggle with sins that we have overcome and we dip
back into them. The object of growing in sanctification is to become
more like Christ and that is becoming holy in all we do. Sin in not
necessarily behavioural in an active sense, it is also passive in that
we fail to live up to a standard of loving God with all of our hearts
and minds. What we consider is our problem usually is a public sin. But
God is looking at the private attitudes and the active thought life as
more henious in His sight.
Its more than just looking at dipping
and trying to stop, that is being held accountable by someone else for
that to take place. Its seeing ourselves in the light of Gods word , by
exposing ourselves to His word in meditation and prayer, and the other
means. Sometimes, the mistery of overcoming sins works in our favor to
draw us to a deeper knowlege of God by making us humble so that we trust
Him instead of ourselves. We will always sin. In my questioning i was
trying to bring out that sin is not just things we do. Sin is like a
person, it has a personality, it is present in us and is always moving
in us and drawing us to not love God with all of our hearts minds and
will. We mortify the deeds of the flesh, that is this nature that has a
power in us and is a two fold power in our spirits and bodies.
We
in ourselves can never wash our feet. Remember that Peter wanted to
Christ to wash his entire body. And Christ did that on the cross. When
we are in Christ we are being washed and thats why our feet are washed
on a daily basis. We do not even understand enough of the depth of our
sin to be able to face each sin on a daily basis to be able to wash our
feet by confession. As the Psamist says forgive my hidden faults, so all
of the feet washing we go through are by grace and are done in that
power of God from the cross, they are within the It is finished. So our
unconfessed sin is washed also or we would all be without hope of our
Fathers approval.
We really do mortify the deeds of the flesh by
the Holy Spirit. The amount of sin we concur is really measured by how
much we know the word of God, \"sanctify them by the word, thy word is
truth\", and what exposure we have to it in consistency. In other words
we must increase our fellowship with the Spirit as the single most
important principle of over coming sin. Its not necessarily running to
men for that help or thinking that we have will power. Maybe latter we
can get into the \"self- determined will. I think we make the salvation
so simple when we say that we have all of these things available from
grace and then all we need to do is appropriate them. The bibles
paradigm in this area is the doctrine is given first, and then the
commands follow, with the doctrine inter spersed into the command
teachings. In other words it is what we know which even tho salvation is
simple it is also exemely diffucult. The process of overcoming sin and
the counsel we recieve by men sometimes gives us the illusion that the
struggle with sin is easy and within a system of steps. But really the
insight into the reality of sin and its depth and its power and its
connections in us , demands an extended struggle to finally get us to
love God. It is in that motif of Christo centric universe that we are
aiming at in over coming sin..\"
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Forums / Main Forum / Afraid
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on: May 27, 2006, 04:29:38 AM
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Fear
has a way of controling your mind so that you focus on the uncertianty
of wether you will be the next victim and then you get that sinking
feeling and the fear seems like another person inside of you talking in
your ear. Fear has a grip, and it brings on anxiety, your stomach gets
tense and you begin to sweat.
Some people live in fear, they are
so controled by fear that it effects the way they live their lives.
There is a difference between knowing danger that is near and being
afraid, and having a fear that controls your every moment. I think you
have the fear of danger and you are having problems dealing with it when
you are alone. Especially at night. Thats the time it usually grips the
most.
The truth is we all deal with fear at certian times in our
lives. We live in an evil world were crime and death are a present
reality. In america there are places were crime is high and there are
places where crime is low. There are places where murder is seldom, and
there are places were people get murdered every day. So that has an
effect on you having to deal with that burden. The nearer you are to
crime the more your going to have it on your mind and the more you are
going to struggle with it.
Usually the crime is greatly increased
in big cities. So there is a burden of concern that you must be aware
of in that enviroment. Just take the proper precautions, lock doors,
when you are afraid express it to someone near so you can get help
quickly, someone who is strong and knows how to deal with these things.
Has good street sense. And report any strange things to the police when
you see them.
Then just determine that you will not be afraid
because of who is watching over you. God is in control and He is
teaching you to trust in Him through this happening so close to you. Ask
Him to deliver you from this fear. I mean there is a normal struggle
with fear, and then there is a fear that grips us too much. When we pray
for deliverance God will hear and He will act on our behalf, by
sorrounding us as if we had ten armies protecting us. He will cause
people to come into our lives or to move into our neighbor hood that
will meet that need of relieving the fear. He will also take the anxiety
away in the sense that He will lighten it so that it will not effect
our peace. He actually says that He will sheild us from danger. Look for
answers to your prayers in your circumstances so that you know He is
acting on your behalf and this will strengthen your faith which is the
answer to fear. God speaks by acting on behalf of His children. Speaking
into His ear is like getting what you want according to His will. When
we pray He hears by acting.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Is Capitalism Consistent With Christian Theology?
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on: May 26, 2006, 05:04:45 AM
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Youve
got to like the freedom of exchange in a capitilistic society. It
really rewards those who work hard and it encourages production by those
rewards. I think we live in an imperilistic society more than a
capitilistic society because there is no longer real freedom in the
exchange of monies. In a capatilistic society the individual has a free
ability to persue his way to earn capital and to consume whatever he
personally likes. In our society we are told what to consume by
imperilism.
A capitilistic society has alot of risk involved
because the more capital you have the more risk you will take to get
more capital. It really encourages monotary risking rather than personal
saving and spending as the main paradigm. Most of the people who risk
most make the most.
Biblically speaking is risking capital a
measure of spiritual maturity? When does imperilism out weigh the
capitilistic paradigm in which those who possess alot of capital run the
working class so that the imperialism creates so much discouragement
that people are left to work so hard that every thing else is left
behind in their lives in order to have a working wage?
Is
risking capital in order to have more capital equal with risking
everything to become a missionary in Chist kingdom? What is the
definition of risk in the biblical sense?
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Forums / Main Forum / Can You Explain This
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on: May 20, 2006, 07:44:27 PM
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I agree...except...
James or Ya'aqov (Jacob) was just saying that if you are born again your actions and life shows it.
If you are guided by the Spirit then your life shows it.
If
you are unsaved and living in the flesh your life shows it, because,
you are eather, unsaved, or saved, living in a state of sin...and need
to be eather saved, or need repentance and confession.
Living under the Law does not mean, not obeying the Law , it means not using righteousness attained from obedience to the Law as a means of attaining salvation . -the Galatian mistake!
The Law “had been†(past tense) the way to righteousness and salvation, if approach by faith in Yahweh, but with the coming of the Messiah , a new way of “righteousness to salvation†was given by God through “faith in Jesus’ death and resurrectionâ€.
The use of the "law/faith" for salvation to eternal life was no more!
The use of the "Law/faith" as a guide for your walk with God was still in place.
How
can you know Godly behavior and un-Godly behavior if you wipe out
God’s/Jesus’ teaching (Law/Torah)? ...you can't! The Holy Spirit
has to reference to something, beside your feelings or imagination!
Taking
a total antimonial position or a partial antimonial position ignores
the fact that the gentiles were given fewer requirements than the Jewish
believers (Acts15). The Torah was not set aside for the Jewish
Church because the gentiles didn't have to be circumcised! However, the
idea that the gentiles were now the new Israel encouraged the false
doctrine of dividing the Law into Moral, civil and ceremonial Law
(Justin Martyr 150 AD) so it could be dissected without apprehension or
guilt for turning away from their Jewish brethren.
All this has added greatly to the present confusion today in the Church
and suggests why the same questions about salavtion, Law and works come up over and over again!
Thor
Thanks Thor-There is a disagreement with you last post that i have, thanks for responding tho.
When
we talk about the work of the Holy Spirit and obedience we are being
exclusive in the scriptural way of obeying. We are making a statement
about mans work and Gods work in man. Mans way is to believe that all he
needs to do is to take the word of God and trust in it alone as and
intellectual assent. That is to tell a person if you pray this prayer
for Jesus to come into your heart then he will come in. In other words
you just take the word and then you intellectualy agree and you are
saved. This is mans attempt at obeying. This leads to man centered
theology of which we have in the usa.
We believe that the word
and the Holy Spirit work in salvation and sanctification to effect the
change. Its not just pray a prayer. It is believing in the heart as
roms. says. That is the focus of that if you believe in you heart and
confess with you mouth. The point is those who have the whole heart
effected will confess with their mouths continually. Beliveng is not
just intellectual but it is emotional, a felt aspect in which the Spirit
witnesses with our spirit through the word of God that we are His. That
is a knowlege that is new and spiritual, and has spiritual senses
involved, taste touch, hear. The height of desire will show the level of
the faith in a person. The more high desire the more growth.
We
are not to wait for a special motion of the Holy Spirit to obey, but we
are to be inflamed with desire from the Spirit and the word in order to
obey. Look at the W- Confession. This is not antinominism.
An
antionomian does not believe that the law applies to him. He only
believes in grace and a so called relationship in Christ that is
undefined. But antinominianism also is a pick and choose theology. An
antinomian picks the parts of the scripture he agrees with and disgards
those parts that do not fit his philosophy. Here is an example. This is
what is so prevelant today. People call real calvinist antinomians
because calvinsim is so watered down today that they can not distinguish
between what is true and what is false. Yet Calvinist accept the
absolute soveriegnty of God as in Eph. 1. So really calvinist are
biblicist in the sense that they have come to terms with God having all
the rites as God. Yet the very people who claim that calviinism is
antinomian are the people who themselves are antinomian. They are the
people who cannot submit to portions of scripture because the have a
warped view of God and then that will translate into a warped view of
the law.
So really semi plagenist go in and out of
antinominianism. The will give a pass to anyone who cannot stomach the
absolute soveignty of God and allow that false view of God to be
practice in the christian world. They belive that that truth does not
apply to them even tho the scriptures are clear. So they focus on the
outward observance of the law and ignore important doctrines that focus
on the heart of the individual. Then they give every one who agrees with
them a pass on not submitting to portions of scripture. That my friend
is antinominianism! This absolute soveriegnty is so important that you
will never understand the true nature of the law in a rational way and
the true nature of grace in a rational way.
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