7640	Forums / Theology Forum / Perseverence	on: April 02, 2007, 05:25:58 AM
Our cry for mercy is the sweet aroma that we have that consumes the stench of the our anxiety from enemies within and without. We are only required to do one thing, to take refuge in Him. Because we live in the stirring of an ocean of enemies that smash up against each other as we wade bolstered by His hand. There are enemies that are pursuing us daily trying to drag us down to the bottom. But we have a Loving Father who only pursues us with His love and faithfulness. He only desires our good. We can have confidence as we face the spears and arrows of the most fierce enemies. We live in the eternal glory of God. All around us and under us an with in us is the glory of God. We are being held up by His eternal love and faithfulness. His love and faithfulness purses us faster and more powerful than our worse foe. When we sense His faithfulness at our heels we are beginning to have an assurance of His care for us beyond our own ability to keep ourselves from falling. We can know that He alone deserves the exaltation in our lives. When the temptation to flee is stronger than the faith we have to remain Gods faithfulness and love peruse us so that we are reduced to glory in Him alone and not in any thing we can do to flee. We really are being perused by his love and faithfulness and we are running into His love and faithfulness. We are receiving in the most severe trials the weight of that glory by seeing God eternally present in our ocean of trials. The weight of His glory far outweighs the light affliction we face. And it is because of His love and faithfulness that experienced in that affliction that surrounds us and peruses us that we can have confidence in His glory.  7650  Forums / Theology Forum / The Donkey Messenger on: April 01, 2007, 10:11:41 AM Quote MBG, I worry for you. I really do. You are highly intelligent. That is good. But, you have swallowed hook, line, and sinker the ideas of a MAN. And the ideas of those that followed him. I did the same thing. Do you remember Herbert W. Armstrong? I followed his teachings from the time I was a teenager. He began a worldwide movement, had a church of over 200,000 people around the world, spoke to world leaders. I became a member of his Church. He had us convinced we were the only true Church. He always said, 'dont believe me, believe the Bible', but we believed what he SAID about the Bible. We were not gullible people. We came from all walks of life. We did not separate from the world. None of the normal cult things were in practice. But, we were a CULT. Why? Because we believed more in the MAN than God! We did not THINK, whatsoever, that we were doing that. Never. But, we were..... Thank God, the successor of HWA was finally set straight by the Holy Spirit. The very hand chosen successor changed the Church. And today, they are more of a mainstream Church. But, oh, what damage was done to those of us that we told to leave. For years, I thought I was doomed to hellfire. ( I was told to leave before the changes because I was a hypocrite). I still have the remnants of a distorted view of God the Father, His son, and the Holy Spirit. Gently, but slowly, the REAL God is untwisting my mind. It is a very slow process. Sometimes I still think He is out to get me, to punish me. That comes from the thinking of a Church that was out of kilter.... I see the same thing in you, MBG. The same type of thinking that I had. I reasoned, and re-reasoned, and re-reasoned some more and came to the conclusion that HWA was right! What I failed to do, (not saying this is true of you, but think about it), is to ask God if HWA was right. You, MBG are absolutely convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that Calvin and his successors have got it right. I do not believe that you actually ever consider that they might not. In all the time I have seen you post, and the ad-naseum posting of these guys novels in the theology section, you have not, (correct me if I am wrong), ever said, 'you know, you might be right, Calvin may have had this wrong' to anyone! Unless you were referring to a correction made by one of his cohorts! Am I wrong? I am not saying this to cuss you. Absolutely not! I just do not want to see you have to go thru what I did, unwinding the thinking of a man. Take care, MBG. doug Dude, I like you Doogie, i really like everyone on the forum so dont think that i am just trying to create problems. I am defending myself here so i will digress to talk about myself. If you want to know the amount of time i spend reading the reformers as compared to the amount of time my head is in meditation it is like 10 to 1. The reformers were so close to the text of scripture in the near and far contextual dogma that to make claims that they were inaccurate are really falling on deaf ears with me. I know enough greek to understand their line of thought. I listen to hours and hours of cd theological tapes and its not because of an obsession but it is because of the pleasure i receive from the Trinitarian world view of life. I expect to be hammered, questioned, and rejected, it just comes with the territory. I take pleasure in suffering for Christ when it comes my way. I am really concerned first for the worship of God without the restraints that legalism hinders. That really is my passion. If i get a little testy or harsh i apologize. God is not finished with me yet. Thanks.   7657  Forums / Theology Forum / The Donkey Messenger on: March 31, 2007, 08:56:16 PM Thomas Oden's three volume historical summary of systematic down through the centuries. Really and truly there is Life in Christ before and after the 16th century and outside the venue of Geneva (or Westminster, if you prefer). God is not obliged to conform Himself and His actions to the T.U.L.I.P. of Netherlands. Yes, Its called mysticism. Any time truth comes through persimssiveness it comes mixed with mens intentions. And ya cant mix pure soveriegnty with permissiveness or you get a placebo . And when it is mixed it is a flattered view of of a false god. So keep trying there LRx maybe one day you will swollow the medicine and get completely well.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 7658  Forums / Theology Forum / The Donkey Messenger on: March 31, 2007, 08:57:03 AM I think though, that many do not respond when the spirit calls, even when he is screaming to get their attention. for that one, there comes that point where they must respond, the must relent, they must understand their weakness and fall on God's mercy. Haven't you ever seen someone in Church when the alter call comes, they stand in their place and try to hold back the tears because they KNOW that call is coming, but they don't move? I think God calls everyone at one time or another. Jesus quoted Isaiah from chapter 54 in John 6:45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. First i like your testimony. But i do not find any of this kind of testimony in the holy scriptures. There are some in Acts, and the narrative is nothing like some of your testimony. The narrative follows the work of the Spirit as soveriegn. He opened Lidyas heart and then the effect as an individual work of the Spirit individually. And there was no going forward, just simple believing. But there was an effect seen because of the entire soul being made alive. So that Christ becomes the most beautiful object of the desires of a new regeneration. So we need to make the scriptures define our experience and not visa versa. The thing we need to see is that regeneration and salvation are a secret work in the heart and what follows that is the effect on the entire man. It really does not depend on our response because it happens without us knowing the exact time of its secret effects. So there are an assurance that we are given in looking on Christ alone. Nothing in my hands i bring only to thy cross i cling. It is when we go to the word, the divine revelation to us will become sweeter than any thing in the world. That is what a true saint is. All of the public displays of one time confession really mean nothing in the scriptural dogma. Even tho God does work through the imperfect process there are reprocussions for the idolic nature of that process. Remove Reply Quote Notify 7659  Forums / Theology Forum / Perseverence on: March 31, 2007, 08:34:17 AM Covenant theology is practically the opposite of semi plagenism. It is the free grace of God . The responsibility we have is to look to Christ righteousness not our own ability to achieve something in this world. It is the difference between a coveting principle and idol worship or the principle of seeing God work on our behalf in meeting our needs. And God works in the covenant community as they remember His works or the works of His hands in providing for His people. It is the principle of grace that makes this foriengn righteousness so wonderful. It is because of His righteousness that we get our needs met. What He wants from us is to remember the works of His hands because He does more than just provide for our needs but He designs the process so that He is right in giving His covenant children the possessions of the wicked. He works on our behalf to pry the monies from the wicked. The wicked grasp the money because they think they actually have earned it on by the sweat of their brow. They believe in a righteousness of their own.But Gods faithfulness is displayed by prying the money from the hands of the idoliters and giving it to the church and His children. So that His children will see that it is all of Gods grace and so in being thankful in Him reminding us of His covenant faithfulness we are able to be moved to remember all of His works and to meditate on all of His wonders. Do you believe that there is nothing in your hands you bring? Do you really believe in the covenant faithfulness of God. Then the principle that you work from will be 180 degress from the climate of religious self righteous system we have today. We must get back to the value of desire theology. It is more valuable than silver or gold. It will expose the self reliant. Remove Reply Quote Notify 7660  Forums / Theology Forum / The Donkey Messenger on: March 30, 2007, 05:59:48 PM I was hoping you could clarify something for me. Do you believe that a person, any person who gets \"saved\" has nothing at all to do with their own salvation? Absolutely! God does not respond to our plea. It is only the plea of Christ on our behalf that has made salvation known to us. And He finished it at the cross for us having obtained salvation for the elect. It was a done deal. The transition of that fact was made to us by regeneration. We were dead in sins and transpasses and He came to us by His Spirit and made us alive. We only respond to His work of free grace by being given a new spiritual knowledge. We were darkened in our understanding and alienated from that life. He made us understand in is soveriegn call in giving us a new spiritual knowledge. Our understanding was made alive so that we were given spiritual senses of sight , touch, feel, taste. Oh taste and see that the Lord is good! The Lord opened his eyes so that he could see! On the day of pentecost they were all like drunk men. They had felt the power of God and they had seen the salvation of God and there was a sense effect as a result of regeneration. Yes , we are totally unable unless we first have that regeneration process. But even our will must be destroyed by grace. \"I will give you a new will and cause you to walk in my ways.\"We get a new will because our old will was alienation from God. It was a self determined will. It was a will that was determined by how truth was as it related to our self image. It was a will that was against all of Gods counsel. The new will had a source and that is the new desires. Now we desire Christ above any other person or object. Now we desire His glory to be manifested through us. Now our self bows by the greater desire for His glory.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 7661  Forums / Theology Forum / The Unknown Counselor on: March 30, 2007, 02:47:51 PM America is filled with counselors. We have more counselors than Job. The human counselors are meeting a self reliant need in the patient. Examining the cultural pain and the family pain is the beginning of pain therapy. The actions that led to the pain are scrouplously put under a micra scope and the experience of the pain is brought to the surface in reviewing the past experiences. Once the patient becomes aware of past hurts he then begins to understand the pain. With a few new methods usually 7 to 12 the patient is exercising the pain out of his system. After a while he grows deeper in his relationships so that he begins to integrate healthy patterns of behavior so that people will be attracted to him and he will then resume a normal life in the american culture. Healthy relationships foster community and they unify the culture. They create families that are meeting together for functions, church and for barbecues. When one feels good about himself he is able to get along with even all of his enemies, that is those who have untapped pain that needs to be brought out through the steps and the growing relationships. The good relationships define the ability of a person and the amount of unity that is fostered is the evidence that the painberometer has gone way down.This process starts from damaged, self centered and broken lives and ends up with a integrated holistic sense of being in community. It really is the ultimate in feeling comfortable about ones own experience. But there is another Counselor. He is the absolute authority on all matters of life. He is the God of the universe. He brings pain into our lives for one purpose , so that we will come to Him with all our hearts and lay it at His feet. He is not even interested in how we feel in the pain but He is only interested in us knowing Him with the pain. He has His hand on the pain and He can make it worse or He can relieve it by the His soveriegn word. God designs us to be absolutely dependent on Him. Our dependence on Him is so integrated with the pain we feel that our design as moral creatures interweeves the pain with our cry to Him so that we are recieving from Him, grace and we are communicating the pain in the balm of Gods merciful sense of love to us beyond our own ability to feel. He has design the course of our lives so that we are drawn by His love in the worse of circumstances and that communication of His love in His revelation speaks the effect of His counseling providence so that we are not only changed by that meditation but we are effecting the circumstances that sorround us that cause the pain. God works in the intregate parts of our souls in the feelings of pain and He designs the movements of our arms and legs under the burden of the pain so that we are never without His being near or advocating our deep desires and longings to be unburdened by these temporal depressions. Our crys to Him out of helplessness are His designs to elevate the pain. Our need to be loved is His response to His ability to fulfill that need. In the failing as a result of the pain we are experiencing His loving hand so that we are led to cry to Him and in the cry we unload our grief as we move from one pain to another. We cast ourselves on Him in our pain and we continue to go again and again. As we persist we are learning that God designed us to be near Him often and He is rewarding us by keeping our eyes fixed on Him. God will never fail even tho we waste away calling out to Him. He will answer us in HIs time and we will be the His prize possession of intimacy. Beyond this world is eternal bliss, when we meet with a painless and eternal love in Christ. Our pathway in pain is a pathway to heaven. It is that we draw near in the pain so that we can be there in the end. Thats all He ask. Even in our worse trials and our most addicted experiences to sin we are only required to call on Him. Dont ever stop calling on Him. He designed us that way.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 7662  Forums / Theology Forum / The Donkey Messenger on: March 30, 2007, 02:03:34 PM Quote You never did understand, did you? Quote God calls who he wants when he wants... God chose before the foundation of the world men and women and He ALONE saves.... No , Its not hyper calvinism its the real gospel. If that's your understanding of "The Gospel", may I gently suggest you go back to the Bible and find out what the Gospel really is.  And then preach Christ, and Him crucified. Sigh.  Maybe if you spent a year knowing that God hated you and planned your torment for his glory from the beginning and there is no Gospel for you, maybe then you'd understand. Wow , Joker this is the heart of gospel power. If we had anything to do with the choice of our salvation we would be most miserable. It is a comfort to know that it is impossible for me to obtain salvation or to keep His salvation. The burden comes when we reduce His authority to a human level of understanding. Once we think He must have done the pre ordination according to our standard of freedom ie not allowing the power of His ability to be manifest in our limiting His freedom to choose we burden ourselves with a form of legalism. I hope that you consider your attitude toward freedom and wash your mind out of the limits you place on God so that the grace He gives becomes in your understanding a  really free grace. It will be a new experience for you.     Remove Reply Quote Notify 7663  Forums / Theology Forum / The Donkey Messenger on: March 30, 2007, 07:28:15 AM Quote Quote I will continue to bray for you.    Really bad. I would have lol'd too but I was in the middle of a tantrum. It just wouldn't have been right. Mark it really isnt about and i hope you re read me. It is about Gods soveriegnty and His control. The only other option is determinism. That will lead to suicide. Self determinism is ugly because when one accepts and teachs it i makes that person controler as a teacher. When God is worshipped as God then we all are free to serve one another. I believe that if you are a christian as i have sensed by your openess and acceptances that God will make it clear to all of us what the truth is concerning the main things. I really put my confidence in God more than men.   Thanks for your apology i duely accept. Now what was that about the bong? he he he .   Remove Reply Quote Notify 7664  Forums / Main Forum / Is It Just Me? on: March 29, 2007, 06:44:55 PM Quote Theological Knowledge is like sex. The more you talk about it, the less you really have. Not if your wife like it also the theology i mean. There is a corolation you know. Is the Song of Solomon theological? I think the passion comes from a love to Christ first. And then its much easier for a sinner to sleep with sinner. Actually, i heard that there aint much sex in modern day marriages. Im sorry forgive me all you prudes ,i got to say it Calvinist do it more.   Reply Quote Notify 7665  Forums / Theology Forum / Strong Delusion on: March 29, 2007, 06:35:44 PM Quote Look there is no one who talks about Christ more than the reformers. You have made us painfully aware of this. You and I should probably agree to avoid direct contact in future. To anyone else who was inconvenienced or hurt by my anger and stupidity in pursuing this, please accept my sincere apology. My feelings are not hurt but i think i hurt yours. I get a little testy at times. I hope you accept my apology for my tone. I do hope you come to accept the extreme pain that Christ went through as a result of our sins. Maybe sometimes we hurt so much that the word pain is painful. I really like your forgiving spirit ML. I know that your spirit talks more truth about christian forgiveness than any of the doctrine that i believe. I can feel your sincerity. Thanks.