I
agree with you willis. In order for us to be getting the proper
interpretation of law and grace we must take the whole counsel on this
issue and bring in an balanced reasoning on this subject. Or we may have
a very scued view as the arminist do.
The law is applicable to
us whether it is in principle the ciremonial laws of the ot. Or wether
it is the moral law or the 10. The law is spiritual in that it shows us
who God is, that is it enough to get us through this life in its
revelation to us. The law is not just a moral code to follow, although
there are benifits in trying as the natural order of a moral universe.
The law is spiritual because it shows us who God is and so in that
illumination we are confronted not only with its requirements but we are
struck with awe of God. It is a spiritual understanding and not just a
drudgery of doing as if it were a school master.
The law leads
us to the end of ourselves and we cast ourselves on Christ. We rest in
Christ from the works of the law and we serve the Spirit by opening the
word which contains the moral law as well as all of the other aspects of
Gods revelation.The law cannot save, when we are regenerated our
relationship to the law changes from that of a school master to its
accomplished purpose of leading us to Christ, so in that there is all
grace within the conviction that comes from our being exposed to the law
of God as christians.
All of our works are filthy rags! We
cannot please God at any time in our lives in ourselves. We are always
falling short of Gods standards,always! Even in the absolute spiritual
height of our christian life we do not measure up. When we are saved we
do not measure up to Gods standards. Yet we are required to obey all of
Gods laws. But our obedience really is and evangelical obedience. When
we do Gods will we do not do it according to His standards. So we need
some elses obedience to stand in for us.
When Christ died on the
cross he secured salvation for all those who are saved or are going to
be saved. That salvation was accomplished at the cross and it was pre
ordained before the foundation of the world by Gods soveriegn decree.
Your name was in Gods decree before the foundation of the world.
Salvation is accounted to you in this life at a point and time decreed
by God, it cannot be resisted. Yet ist was earned by Christ at His death
and ressurection.
There was nothing that you did to get that
salvation. It is strictly a work of God. In that salvation you were
declared righteous in a legal sense. You were forgiven all of your sins,
past present which was accomplished by Christ taking on you sin, and
you were given on your personal account His active obedience in which he
lived on this earth, perfectly. In other words you were justified by
grace through faith. The grace is free, the faith is a gift. The grace
of God is always at work in salvation and sanctification. In the
mortification of sin, that is putting to death sin by the Spirit, we are
required to obey the law by repenting of sin, which repentance is not
earned but given by grace by God. We turn from our sin to Christ and see
that we are unworthy and ungodly in ourselves and we only have one hope
of overcoming sin , and that is through forgiveness granted because of
Christ work, and restoration granted by Christ through His active
obedience. Through this grace process we begin to turn from sin and to
Christ. THe law convicts us, we see our need , we turn to Christ, and we
get renewed. If we try to make good our sin by doing something to make
up for it we will be in a relationship with the law that will make us
want to sin more. But we are in a relationship with a person of Christ
and so the law leads us to Him.
So in order for us to obey, we
need grace, and grace for each individual act of obedience pryor to us
doing Gods will. And we need grace to perform the act while in the act,
and we need grace to meet the requirements of God in that obedience. All
this grace is in our justification and having Christ obedience given to
us in salvation.
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Forums / Main Forum / Followers Are Not The Church!
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on: May 19, 2006, 01:12:09 PM
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My
own experience in transparency in the church is that God has controlled
this very delicate balance. Heres what i mean. Here we are commanded to
carry each others burdens, confess our sins to one another, pray for
one another. And then we are also commanded to have no other Gods before
Him. Now this commandment involves placing man as a god in place of
God. You know there is this confessional mentality, that is if i just
have someone who i can confess my sin to then i will become whole. Well
the catholic church has been practicing this for longer than we can
imagine and look at the state of the church.
I agree that
transparency is important. In fact i think everyone needs to be
transparent at different points in their lives. Here we are commanded to
be transparent with each other, and yet we live in a corrupted world, a
very low point in church history, you know the day of small things. And
yet God knows the number of the hairs of our heads, and he takes care
of the swallow, so he knows exactly what we need when we need it. So
here is my experience in all of this.
There have been times when
i have had that friend that would listen to me. Well you know what i am
talking about, God brought someone into my life and there was a direct
spiritual surge as a result of being able to be transparent to this
person. Now it was not just that relationship of transparency but it was
also these spiritual infussions to strengthen my faith. I think God
brought these different people into my life at the rite time to
encourage me, at a cross roads in my life to prepare me for something
even better. The people had more than just an ear. They had something
supernatural that God was using in them to encourage me.
Yet in
my experience they come and go. And i think its because we can create a
syndrome of unbelief in this prolonged enviroment. Here we have this
illusion of transparency , this perfect situation were we get into a
relationship and we unburden our souls, and yet in order for us to grow
there needs to be an absence of personal satisfaction after these stages
in these transparent relationships.What does God do to stretch our
faith? He seems to be distant. Why? Because faith is like a muscle. In
order for it to be expecised it must be tested.
So absence test
faith. Then we begin to ask where God went. Yet he is rite there but the
relational abitility in assurance has weakened so that we must believe
in things unseen. We will seek Him more in his absence. He has every
rite since we forget him so much when we are cruising along. And so he
does the same thing with people in our lives.
The problem is we
live in a relational society, idolic. I can remember the people who
gave me that personal attention i needed at the rite times. And God was
giving me so much encouragement in these times in these relationships,
but then i have also experienced a distance where that special touch was
not there. So now i smile when this situation comes along and i try to
get as much as i can when God decides to bring these people into my
life.
Yet i have learned almost more when there has been no one.
These times prepare me to help others who feel lonely. These times
teach me a deep trust in the unseen. These times are very volital
emotionally. Here is were longing becomes intense. God uses every
situation in our lives to mold us. He is not going to do anything that
will destroy our faith, but will strengthen it.
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Forums / Main Forum / Followers Are Not The Church!
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on: May 19, 2006, 10:08:16 AM
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Could it be that being a part of a local church makes your life easier to deal with.
I
wish that were true. I long for that place, but I don't believe it
exists on this side of Heaven. On the contrary, most time the local
church becomes the local judge, jury and executioner. As an institution,
it makes me cringe. But there are people in the church (and here at
KLF) that change all that. I've come to realize that God isn't using
everyone who walks through the doors of the church. Some are not His
sheep and therefore, it will always be a flawed place. That's not to say it's all bad, I love my church (with all it's flaws) and wouldn't leave it unless He dragged me out.
thanks
LF, Maybe what i am trying to say is that this process of healing and
that spiritual vigor that we recieve as members of a local church is
transitition to us inspite all of the pain that we experience as a
result of the sins of other people that we rub sholders with in that
church paridigm. It is that people are used by God in our world of
church experience to minister to us where in all the seeming complex
idocencricies of others that bring about the incomplete working in our
need is made up by Christ and the Spirit in a supernatural way as we in
unison of the local body look to Him through His word and coporate
prayer to meet that need completely. We actually are made to feel
helpless in a coporate way so that God gets all the glory, and this is
the completeing aspect in all are needs being met. Is that confusing
enough?
Youll
have to excuse me for loving my calvinism, but maybe this whole problem
that we have in this painful experience of church fellowship is a
result of man centered theology, and focusing on the parts of the body
rather than the Head of the body. So it leaves us short sited as to the
holistic healing method of recieving grace as a result of who is
exalted, who is given the glory. And unless we change the way we think
Gods smile will be witheld. There is a sense in which the very preaching
and focus on Christ absolute rule in His church brings men into enough
vision of humility so that the Spirit is given His proper place through
humble prayer and deepened need in us to become united in one mind. This
really is the working out of Christ rule in practical terms.
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9042
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Forums / Main Forum / Followers Are Not The Church!
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on: May 19, 2006, 09:44:34 AM
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Could it be that being a part of a local church makes your life easier to deal with.
I
wish that were true. I long for that place, but I don't believe it
exists on this side of Heaven. On the contrary, most time the local
church becomes the local judge, jury and executioner. As an institution,
it makes me cringe. But there are people in the church (and here at
KLF) that change all that. I've come to realize that God isn't using
everyone who walks through the doors of the church. Some are not His
sheep and therefore, it will always be a flawed place. That's not to say it's all bad, I love my church (with all it's flaws) and wouldn't leave it unless He dragged me out.
thanks
LF, Maybe what i am trying to say is that this process of healing and
that spiritual vigor that we recieve as members of a local church is
transitition to us inspite all of the pain that we experience as a
result of the sins of other people that we rub sholders with in that
church paridigm. It is that people are used by God in our world of
church experience to minister to us where in all the seeming complex
idocencricies of others that bring about the incomplete working in our
need is made up by Christ and the Spirit in a supernatural way as we in
unison of the local body look to Him through His word and coporate
prayer to meet that need completely. We actually are made to feel
helpless in a coporate way so that God gets all the glory, and this is
the completeing aspect in all are needs being met. Is that confusing
enough?
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9044
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Forums / Main Forum / Sitting In The Pew.
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on: May 19, 2006, 06:39:57 AM
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Here
is the place where all unseen realities come together with all the
human experience and bring about supernatural healing by our supreme
Doctor. This is your appointment that is your place in the pew to meet
with God. Just as the cross was the place were all powers met that is
love and hate, justice and forgiveness etc, so the place were the cross
is experienced in a supernatural way is in that place of worship, in
your seat in the pew. It really is the most foolish place in the world.
My lifes direction with all of its joys, sorrows , successes etc, and
how my mind is formed is processed in that place. How foolish in the
worlds eyes, i just sit and get my emotional needs met and becoming
whole as a person in that simple place in Gods house. All of my longings
are for that place. All of the ultimate experiences of peace,joy, love,
comfort, pain, sorrow, are felt in that place. What do you think?
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Forums / Main Forum / Followers Are Not The Church!
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on: May 19, 2006, 06:02:39 AM
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Could
it be that being a part of a local church makes your life easier to
deal with. Christ is the head of the church , i am speaking of the local
church, and so His doing in our lives is in that frame work of
membership. Could it be that the problems we face in our personal lives
are given to us in direct relation to how our church is functioning and
its specific needs. Could it be that the connection with people is soly
related to the connection we have with the local church being
experienced as a natural process rather than living outside of that
paridigm in an unatural connection way.
Could it be that all the
prayers for most all of our problems are answered in relation to prayer
in the church and its called servants in our lives and our sheperds.
Isnt the church our connection to supernaturalism? Could you invision
attendance of a church that teaches sound doctrine as accessing all of
the promises and privileges of Gods family, that is living in His house
as a son in this attendance way and so having that relationship with our
Father in this church connection.
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Forums / Main Forum / Followers Are Not The Church!
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on: May 18, 2006, 05:01:34 PM
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... experience validates Truth.
FAITH LETS,
gene
How do you know its God speaking to you in your experience?
Granted experience can have a profound effect on how we understand the
revelation of God. But past experience can also cloud the revelation of
God, and in a sense we are all products of our experiences. And if there
is no historical perspective on our experiences then we may be cutting
ourselves short as to what is the christian experience. I mean here we
are human in all of this and not just having spiritual experiences. So
there is a reading into what christian experience is by what kind of
teaching we have had, who we have been around in the christian world
that has been able to show us by experience the reality of these things,
and what kind of preaching we have been under, which is the chief
source of believing in a deceptive christian experience. These human
interactions have a profound effect apoun how we read our experiences
and what we consider is the proper christian experienc.
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Forums / Main Forum / Followers Are Not The Church!
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on: May 18, 2006, 04:28:54 PM
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I
have read these post and would like to add one thing here. I think we
live on truth and not experience first. When we search the scriptures we
are confronted with the truth, the revelation of God and we see
ourselves in all of the revealing. There is a sense in which the more we
submit to Gods revelation the more our disposition will be effected.
We
dont just abide in the reality of who we are as sinners. Nor does God
bring us to helplessness in order to show us something. In order for us
to have a good understanding of abiding in Christ we must have an
assurance that we are His. That assurance is cheifly His Spirit teaching
us through the preaching of the word and the meditation of the word in
that objective truth and then applying it to our lives in a practical
way.
There is a sense of the word also. There is a spiritual
beauty in all of Gods revelation. But unless we are actively engaging
our minds in all of this we will not experience this assurance as an
abiding assurance.
I dont want to be confused with the belly button
theology either. I am not for looking into oneself or having some kinda
self revelation that is the source of abiding. I am talking about the
objective truth of the word and applying our minds to that truth even
when it doesnt feel like it is breaking into our hearts. There is a
delay of sastifaction sometimes when meditation gets long and dull. But
there will always be a payoff. The only other abiding in self knowlege
,is a fleshly disposition which is just pining away, or depression from
spiritual apathy, or a way that seems rite but leads to destruction.
The
helpless disposition can be healed by meditation and practice. The
message of grace is that not only are the effects of salvation free, but
the active usage in Christ atonement for a guilty sinner is always
positive in its workings. In other words we create our guilt trips by
not understanding the way of God in revealing to us our sin and in His
readiness to forgive, and never condemn us. This is more of an area here
of trust or strength of trust. But strength of trust flucuates because
we struggle with assurance. Assurance again is only found in a free
grace gospel atmosphere.
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Forums / Main Forum / God's Punishment?
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on: May 11, 2006, 09:16:08 AM
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Everything
that happens to us is by the decree of God. Most of us want to attach a
reason for every little injury. We reason that God gets us back for
incidents of disobedience. Yet the way we are thinking is from guilt and
not rational. God disciplines us but he does it for a purpose, and that
is for his glory and our own good. But he is more concerned about what
goes on in our hearts than those things that happen in a moral universe
of cause and effect.
He is a loving Father and so alot of his
reasoning of what happens to us is unknown to us and probably will be
unknown to us until we get to heaven. We reason in a physical universe
with finite understanding, God reasons in a state of perfect will etc.
What we consider negative is what He does to actually increase our
ability to reason spiritually and see as He does by building faith in
Him so that our dependence on Him is greater.
Those things that
are tough to deal with are the very things that are turned around for
our good by God so that we will praise Him and see the extra goodness of
God in these trying things. He helps us reason in the rite way as a
result of the fallen consequences wether personal or impersonal. A
person who trust in God in the most trying situations actually is more
rational than a person who blames God for negative stuff. We are to be
humble beggars with great prayers for deliverance so that we can watch
God turn the bad we experience to good.When we get this faith joy that
does not depend on circumstances then we will experience soul changing
realities. These desires will direct us no matter what the circumstances
are.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Spiritual Depression
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on: May 08, 2006, 09:28:17 PM
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There
is a great assurance that is direct flooding into the heart a short
awakening that is supernatural.the strength of the Holy Spirit who
witnesses by the word with our hearts in secret movements effecting our
desires, which flood in to strengthen our faith. Such strength has a
physical strengthening as well. The mind is sharpened so that the
spiritual and eternal things become so much of a focus that all the
desires of the heart are subdued and that eternal world inbueds the
strength of angels on the disposition of a man.
The word
meditated on brings about a longing of more strength ,and more assurance
of Gods witness in us. We become convinced of an eternal power so that
supernaturalism superseeds philosophy. Unless we spend long hrs in
prayer and meditation then we will only experience the temptation to
semi plagenate our disposition. Real joy in the Holy Ghost comes when
not only do we intellectually understand the absolute soveriegnty of God
but we sense by an assurance that our Fathers love is shed abroad in
our hearts. We feel that love over any other desire, that frees us in
that assurance that the Fathers presence has come and all is well even
tho the world around us is just a rough sea. That roughness is necessary
so that we will seek this assurance as a result of suffering in our
flesh and the trying of our faith. Oh the strength that is felt in
assurance. Tarry long in meditation and prayer be pleading the promises,
all will be well, Christ has already won the victory, we have so much
eternal resources at our disposal.
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Forums / Theology Forum / All Of Grace
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on: May 03, 2006, 03:23:57 PM
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Romans 4 [Commentary]
1. What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
2. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
4. Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6. just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7. "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8. "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
9.
Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised
also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
10. How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
11.
and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness
of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the
father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness
might be credited to them,
12. and the father of circumcision to
those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the
steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while
uncircumcised.
13. For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants
that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through
the righteousness of faith.
14. For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;
15. for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
16.
For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance
with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the
descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who
are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
17. (as
it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the
presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead
and calls into being that which does not exist.
18. In hope against
hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations
according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE."
19. Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body,
now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the
deadness of Sarah's womb;
20. yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,
21. and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.
22. Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
23. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him,
24. but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,
25. He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.
Thanks
Bill, Here is the passage about justification and how it relates to
believing. Here Paul is stressing the fact that entrance into salvation
is not of works. The illustration about the wage being earned is really
the opposite of the doctrine of free grace given and the doctrine of
justification. If we think in terms of an employeer -employee
relationship in the relationship we have with Christ then it shows that
we do not understand justification by faith.
There is no earning
favor with God. There is no hourly wage paid for good deeds. Salvation
is a free gift given to us through faith or believing in the work of
Christ on our behalf.
Some people think that justification is a
one time act at salvation, and then the sanctification process starts
after justification. In other words justification is the gift and then
we must take the rains from there in our sanctification and work out our
salvation. So justification in this sceme is seen as happening at the
begining and all the good graces of Christ righteousness are sorta in
the distant past for an older believer.
The problem with this
thinking is that if you read the whole Rom.4 passage justification is
seen as a present reality, in other words it is always at work in the
most mature believers. Thats why it says that abraham was declared
righteous in his believing that he would have a child which was an
experience in the later years of his christian experience. So he was
only righteous by that act of believing as credited to him.
Abraham
obeyed God by believing that Sarah would have a baby, yet that
obedience was only acceptable because of a righteousness that was
foriegn to him. This is the argument of Paul from ch. 1 in that all
righteousness that we have is a foriegn righteousness.
The
question is what was the process that was going on in Abrahams mind and
understanding in the act of believing. Well he says that abraham counted
himself ungodly. Abraham looked at himself as ungodly in himself and so
the only remedy for this delima was not in abrahams righteousness but
Christ righteousness. See this process of identity was part of Abraham
thoughout his christian experience. When he counted himself ungodly ,
then he realized that all of his believing was by grace and so that
identity of himself was the fertile ground in abraham in which
justification flourished. Even tho our identity is in Christ and so we
are seen as completely righteous, yet we still have remnants of the sin
nature and we still need the grace of Christ to make all our believing
acceptable. So we do recognize that we are ungodly in ourselves All of
our christian experience is of grace..
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