Maybe
tip toeing through the tulips is required in todays climate for new
tulips to sprout. Go sh dont we cals feel like Tiny Tim sometimes?
| 9451
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Forums / Main Forum / Just Curious
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on: March 09, 2006, 12:42:31 PM
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MBG,
Without
getting into useless debate over who needs more counselling, Calavists
or Aremenians, might I suggest that much of what you say is no different
that what I try to get across regarding a christian marriage?
The
only "hierarchy" that I believe is worth having in a marriage is to put
God first. In other words, we submit to HIM... and the rest "takes
care of itself"-- in the form of two people with "one heart"...
The
details can get sticky, I understand. Sometimes one spouse "takes the
lead"; sometimes the other, according to the gifts we have been given by
God -- much like I believe the church should work...
Maybe the
"calvanists" among us are the ones who see thing more black and white,
while the "aremenians" see tints and shades as well...
Can we not, while seeing things differently, still submit to one another?
Just a thought.
lm
Dont
get me wrong i am not complaining about my wife. I am just saying that
when i began to see a much higher set of motivations then she began to
throw away alot of soulish doctrines. It really is much more of a
spiritual battle than a battle to have a healthy relationship.
What
gets respect is not just doing the things that are required for the
fulfilling of the needs of each partner. What gets respect is having the
ba lls as a man to depend on God, with inflamed desires, new desires,
desires that sometimes clash with self will in the marriage in both
partners. Really there is nothing plastic about loving each other. It is
being able to control the inside by renewal,by the Holy Ghost.
| 9454
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Forums / Main Forum / Just Curious
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on: March 09, 2006, 12:05:08 PM
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Hey guys, I was just pestering you a bit... all in fun...
Get all the badges you like!! And be macho if you like!!!
But my badge says "I am woman, hear me roar" -- and I have a tendency to think I have to live up to the image... 
lm
The third person does not alow for judgement in the
marriage relationship. The third person is working on the inside of both
partners to ignite the desires directly, to make the moment to moment
relationship a heavenly fulfillment and not a dependent soulish
existence. The marriage relationship is a picture of the oneness of the
Father and Son relationship. Those desires the Son has from His Father
are the essence of that oneness. That Oneness is not physicological in
reality, but spiritual reality. The oneness is what we have in Christ.
It is what the desires we are given at new birth that is divine
knowlege, a pleasured desire for His glory that ignites oneness. Just
remember that this stuff is impossible to accomplish in a counseling
session. This stuff is done in relationship in Christ.
| 9458
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Forums / Theology Forum / Calvy-armny Teachers
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on: March 09, 2006, 10:36:52 AM
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Well
we have discussed this free will problem in detail in the past. I
accept that youall do not believe a heresy if you believe that you chose
your salvation. I know that you believe in faith, and that grace is in
there too. I have seen that youall like Steves doctrine of grace. May i
remind you that Steve has taken the road of Calvin and that grace is a
profound power that has no back door deals or human will limitiing it.
If youall wish for that grace to be a reality in your own thinking then
you will need to get off of the road you are traveling on in free will.
Remember
when you decided to become a christian? Now you can say that you had a
free will to decide and that feels free to you and you feel good about
yourself. But there are consequences for beliefs. See if you really
chose God then you are responsible for that choice entirely. Thats a
really hard life to live. I mean it really is impossible if you get
really down to that reality. I mean you can believe that and sacrifice
your freedom by feeling good that you chose God. But when you think that
way then what happens one day when you leave Him for awhile?
Just
think about your house, and how proud it was to choose that first one to
live in. You felt so responsible because you signed your name on that
line. You did every thing you could to fix it up and then you began
paying for it and you were proud to be a home owner. You had so much
pride in yourself for your choice. Then one day things started to happen
and through many circumstances you went through a long period were you
began to lose all that you had built up in that house. It became such an
inward termoil that it led to an ulsur. All that responsible good
feeling went rite out the window. You were blaming yourself for every
thing because just like you being on top of the world feeling proud of
your choice, now that reality turned on you and you were in a constant
state of self blame.
So you sought out others who were great
chosers and they consoled you, but when you were by yourself your mind
was programed to belive that your freedom granted you full
responsiblity.
Now think about this what happens if someone buys
the house for you? What happens if he gives you the opportunity to
choose your own house and he fronted the money? Now here you are living
in the house you chose but realizing that that person gave you a free
gift and so you want to do every thing to keep that house good because
you want to show him how much you appreciate him. Now these bad
circumstances happen to you and now because he bought the house for you
and he says dont worry, its my house now i will take the burden so you
dont need to carry the responsiblity on yourself. I love you and i will
give you grace to go through these bad circumstances and i will supply
all your needs because i aloud you to choose that house and i will be
responsible for your future. Then you would love Him even more because
he is in control.
See that is what soveiegn grace is all about. Thats why God must choose me so that i can be free. really free.
| 9466
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Forums / Theology Forum / Spirituality
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on: March 08, 2006, 02:18:46 PM
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There
is that boasting spirit, you know the one that works its way through
your mind and fixes its power in the center of your disposition. Yes it
is what is a dark weight causing anxiety to run by the worries of the
world to abound. It is a natural resistence to being \"in Christ.\" Oh
how it wants to lust for more control, and then form patterns of
behavior for new idols, that are imagined emotional relishes of fleshly
snibits of time only to turn green in self depression.
To be in
Christ is to be boasting in Christ, to Christ and ,for Christ. It must
be a continuios desire that is lived in, that is fled to, that is fed to
over come that ugly resistence. In Christ desire never looses its
boasting power, it always sustains the soul so that the idols fade away
by a greater pleasure attachment of Christ. Rejoicing in Christ is part
of the spiritual unity the body of Christ enjoys through out the world.
To boast in Christ is to be amoung the beggars, the afflicted, not only
finding the pleasure and resistence of great power but finding a power
to kill self will. Really identifying with the needy, is really
identical with boasting in Christ because boasting in Christ is boasting
in community.
Now we no longer boast as one, but we boast
together forgeting not only the self boasting but forgeting ourselves
for our brothers.
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| 9467
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Forums / Main Forum / Manifestations Of Tthe Holy Spirit
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on: March 08, 2006, 01:47:06 PM
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I
have never spoken in tounges so if i am labled half saved then so be
it. I find that all of this experience stuff is advantagous to my life
or it can be detrimental. If i just think in the intellectual acceptance
by faith way then i am prone to look into the perfect law that gives
liberty at one moment and then the next moment forget.
If i just focus on doing then i will become weaker and weaker and more judgemental and more judgemental.
If
i say that every thing has been given to me and is all i need to do is
appropriate it then i reduce all that is given to me to my performance
of it.
I do believe that we are to seek that extra, that special
grace, more of the Spirit. I dont think that we can react to all the
tounge speakers and fall on the other side and just coast through our
christian life. The logic to me is i must be more seeking than the guy
who seeks tounges in my prayers so that what power or extra i have will
be an example to him that maybe i have found something extra that he has
never tapped with tounges. I believe that the word and the Spirit work
together in prayer to infuse us with all we desire of the extra.
The
Spirit lust within us and we fellowship with Him, if we think more
about time slowing down, and we only concentrate on the problems of one
day then we will want that relationship to be enlivened really, not
theoritical, actual experience of Gods awesome presence. A real moment
by moment fellowship with the Holy Ghost through meditation on the word.
Yes God speaking directly to us , granting us power , love growth,
understanding , in the supernatural way. Giving us a taste of Christ, as
we rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory so that we long for
that grace to be revealed on teh last day. We would be caught up in
eternity, blasting out of this world, in thinking on things above,
moment by moment waiting for that extra supernatural infussion. Peace
peace, peace!
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| 9470
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Forums / Main Forum / Authenticity
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on: March 08, 2006, 11:04:59 AM
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There
is a paradox in reality. You can have a battle on the comunicative
level and be active in the giving level, or you can be agreeing on the
communicative level and be self obsorbed on the active level. Isnt that
what or Father is like. He tells us what the standard is in very vivid
terms and the He acts to keep us even tho we fail at those standards all
the time? It seems like it is extremely hard but the support is
gracious so that what His standard is comes to us through grace and
support?
| 9479
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Forums / Main Forum / Authenticity
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on: March 07, 2006, 03:22:34 PM
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Wow
authentic is what you are when you are free to be leading in a group
about the knowlege you have of yourself and the ability to show others
things about themselves that they never thought about. If your
discernment about others surpasses them in a group enviroment, then
being able to be in control of handling that insight so that you bring
out the authenticity of those people is the essence of being authentic.
It
really is not about being moral necessarily. Acting as if you are more
able to control your outward behaviour while pining away on the inside
is the underlying problem for authenticity. I think authenticity has
much to do with supernatural infusions that flow from a heart full of
the love of God. This is the closest thing to transparency in a person. I
have been in a group of people that show little emotion and have really
great discipline. There is something plastic about that.
I have
been with people who are not so moral and they have an ability to be
less self conscious by having a better grip on how they perceive
themselves which allows them to relax and be authentic. I think
authenticity is a state of the mind, an insight of knowlege of oneself,
and knowing the personalities of others and the short falls of others
and then being comfortable of all these different insights in your own
skin.
| 9483
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Forums / Theology Forum / Spiritual Depression
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on: March 06, 2006, 11:22:10 AM
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Is
having the rite motive in performance the central issue in believing?
Performance is what existence of an action. To exist is to be in a state
of performance. Just because one is passive in existence does not mean
that performance is not existent. To be passive is to be in a state
where you are acted apoun by an outward source. So you are actively
recieving as performance.
As Calvinist we believe that we are totally
passive in regeneration. Yet being passive is an effect of us recieving
a performance of salvation in us and in recieving we taste as a
performance by us. Whether we are active or passive there still is an
objectivity in us of a reality of that action so that we have an
assurance by performance.
So if performance was the central issue
then perfection of ability to understand that action would be the
underlying motive in that reality. Obviously that would be a burden in
that objective process of the understanding that would come into the
reality of the thoughts of the mind that would actually resist
dependence.
The real delima is the underlying motive in performance
in the minds understanding of that motive can never properly understand
the nature of the motive, nor understand whether the motive is in
compliance in that performance. That objective reality is an endless
search and will compete with the biblical illumination whose central
objective in any performance is dependence apoun God. So the performance
state in the biblical sense is an action done on us or an action we do
with a corrupted motive being in a state of depravity in the whole of
our existence.There is no middle ground here . We are either going
forwards or backwards in our dependance on God.
If we place
performance as the central means to obtain a certian end then that which
is done in behalf of us by God and our recieving it will be looked
apoun as insignificant. The very act done on us is a performance in the
biblical sense. The healing nature of us recieving that performed act
by Christ performs in us dependence.
| 9501
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Forums / Theology Forum / Spirituality
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on: March 03, 2006, 07:04:55 AM
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When
we think about time, the moments passing we must consider the nature of
uncertianty in each passing moment. Is the mind able to predict the
dispostion of future moments? There must be a power of ability outside
of time that sustains these moments and those changes in the disposition
other than the mind. It is incomplete as a working principle to produce
trust from learned trusting. There must be an immenate trust
presupposed by the Holy Spirit in that mystery of those future moments.
In that trust there is an immediate transferance of newness of spiritual
vitality in order for our dispositon to exist in the mystery of each
new moment.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Spiritual Depression
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on: February 28, 2006, 02:01:38 PM
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When
we come to the deep waters we feel the waves rolling over us. We sense
that we have entered and enviroment were we are being threatened by
circumstances pushing in on us. Then there is the ultimate helpless
sense that we only have so much time and then we are going to drown. We
are not always in the deep waters, but we enter the deep waters at
different time in our lives. One of the problems about being in the deep
waters is that we think that we have put this experience apoun
ourselves and we feel helpless to get out of these waters.
If we can
picture a prolonged experience in the deep waters we have certian life
giving air flows to help us be sustained in the waters. One of the sure
signs we have come to these waters is that our path in our life has
gone from being smothe to one where we cannot hold ourselves up because
the ground under us is like the bottom of the ocean just full of mush.
Here we have a sensation of sinking, which brings out the helplessness
of our situation. I mean if we could some how find a place that has some
firm ground then we would be saved from sinking. Rather we remain in
the muck and we experience dread over going deeper.
There is always a
dicotomy in helplessness. One is that when the sinking begins the crys
grow stronger. The helplessness increases and the crys for help grow
deeper. The seperation from the comfort of Jesus becomes greater and the
longing for that comfort grows in us. Its as if we are going down and
as we go down we have these waves of crys that get stronger and stronger
until we only can think that His nearness is all we need and not
getting to the top of the water.
Yet there are circumstances that
cause that throw us into this delima and there are people who stand on
both sides of our pain. When we enter the deep waters we are entering
the reality of pain. Pain is the source irritation and all of the
circumstances and peoples pressure on us make the deep waters the
ultimate state of helplessness. Pain represents the helplessness of the
withdrawl of His comforts and the uncertianty of the circumstances and
people over taking us as if we were left to ourselves to surcumb.
We
are people who sink in the depth of hatred from without and suffer
alone. We experience pain from those who want to talk about us and shame
us in the deep. In reality that is our part in suffering. We suffer in
withdrawl of His graces and the withdrawl of sinners. We live in a depth
of depravity. Our longings as christians for help is as natural as
mercys cry for pardon. The very longing for understanding and nearness
in the ocean of blame finds its fulfillment at the bottom of grace. We
can be brought to utter helplessness and find His nearness at the bottom.
| 9530
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Forums / Main Forum / Election And Predestination
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on: February 26, 2006, 05:50:19 PM
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I dont quite get your point here...
OK,
try this: which son do you identify with in the story of the prodigal?
Unfortunately, most sermons I've heard on the subject are basically
judgmental and legalistic about the wayward son. But in the end, it was
he enjoying the party and the other "righteous" son standing outside in
the dark after refusing the father's personal invitation to come inside.
But no, his pride and self-righteousness caused him to reject the
offer. (Note BTW that both sons were sons by right, but both CHOSE their
respective destinations.)
It's awareness of our sin that leads to Jesus.
Romans 3
19Now
we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the
law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held
accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his
sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the
glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the
redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
The
prodical son is showing two things. It shows that the arminist who are
legalistic react in their legalism to lenincy.(An officer and a
gentlemen syndrome.) When people under legalism secretly break the rules
they are more respected in that legalistic system than the ones who
think they can keep the rules. The point of the prodical is to show that
those in the family of God who have a tendency to one extreme also
practice the other extreme I know this by experience because i lived
this for years and still have problems in this area and will till i get
to heaven..
| 9531
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Forums / Theology Forum / The Two Trees In The Garden Of Eden
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on: February 26, 2006, 04:40:12 PM
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The
law came 430 after the Abrahamic Covenant. In gal. Paul is saying that
the law did not set aside the covenant but rather was put into effect to
lead the people to sacrifice for an atonement, yet all their hope was in the covenant. The sacrifice was given so that the people could meet the requirements of the law.
Think
about this if man is justified, that is he recieves the righteousness
of Christ , that is all mans works wrought by the Holy Spirit are
righteous because of Christ then God is concerned about each work. If
man was not responsible in the garden for each work and then fell by
sinning then why was it necessary to restore that those original demands
in Christ? Christ came and obeyed the law completely. If there was no
law in man originally before the fall then why was in necessary for
Christ to come and obey the law completely so that He could restore man
to his original righteousness yet even better in this second Man.
When
He died for sin , He died for past present and future sins. He
fulfilled the demands of the Father by taking the punishment for all the
sin of the elect. Then how could he hold man be accountable in adam for
every sin if that accountability was not present in the original man
who fell from that accountability in the garden? If man would have
fulfilled the demands of the covenant by fulfilling all righteousness
then man would have lived forever in that righteousness. But by falling
into that state of sin the remedy that was applied after the fall
showed the extent of that relationship man had before the fall. If the
second adam performed all the necessary work to restore man , then he
had to restore what was lost by the first adam.
| 9533
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Forums / Main Forum / Election And Predestination
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on: February 26, 2006, 05:31:42 AM
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MBG. I agree and without going back and reading my post, from what you
say, I may have said it wrong. When we finally decide to heed God's call
for salvation, becoming saved is as easy as falling off a log. I must
have messed up when I did not make it clear that living the way God
wants us to live is difficult, but not because God made it difficult. We
bring all the problems and difficulties on ourselves and make it so
hard to understand. This is why Christians are held responsible by God.
He would not hold us responsible if He had made it so hard to
understand. I may disagree with your belief that living a Christian life
is hard to understand. I think its simple to understand but very hard
to do. The Bible is filled with such warning as "the fiery darts of
Satan". Darts don't kill but they sure as heck sting. When I look upon a
woman with lust as David did, its simple to understand the remedy God
has provided for me. There is nothing hard to understand. I know that I
must cast it down. But the doing?
When I see that grace does not
stop at the salvation threshold, I am probably being contradictory but I
do agree that this is hard to understand, but still believe that our
self imposed impediments are what make it so.
We
may be on the same page here but i like detailed explanations. What i
ment was that it is diffucult to be sanctified . We do not leave our
minds at the door when we are saved. Trying to do works in our own power
is easy. Looking at our christian life as us making it hard for God is
not really the doctrine of salvation. He is working in us to will and to
do. We must depend apoun the word and the Spirit in order to work out
our salvation. This is not an easy process. It requires engaging the
mind in study and meditation on the word in order for the Spirit to work
in us. We no longer belong to ourselves, we do not live in guilt. Blame
was put on Christ and we have forgiveness. We are required to stir up
the grace in us. Here is the confession.
II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but
upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free
and unchangeable love of God the Father;[2] upon the efficacy of the
merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,[3] the abiding of the Spirit,
and of the seed of God within them,[4] and the nature of the covenant of
grace:[5] from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility
thereof.[6]III. Their ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ.[12] And that they may be enabled thereunto, beside the graces they have already received, there is required an actual influence of the same Holy Spirit, to work in them to will, and to do, of His good pleasure:[13] yet are they not hereupon to grow negligent, as if they were not bound to perform any duty unless upon a special motion of the Spirit; but they ought to be diligent in stirring up the grace of God that is in them.[14]IV.
When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace,
He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9]
yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not
perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that
which is evil.[10]by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them:[2] the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed,[3]
and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and
mortified;[4] and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all
saving graces,[5] to the practice of true holiness, without which no man
shall see the Lord.[6]
| 9536
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Forums / Main Forum / Election And Predestination
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on: February 25, 2006, 09:30:55 AM
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Hello Willis. The gospel is indeed simple. It is the proclaiming of the
good news of God's kingdon on earth. It does not pertain to the
mysteries. He went out of his way to distribute this good news to the
world, leaving no possibility of a mysstery. If God made everything as
simeple as the gospel, His spoon feeding would cause us to not dig deep
to find the answers. We all practically have the gospel memorized. I
would never open my Bible. But since it is necessary that I do, God
rewards me with things that I never dreamed of. We are saved by works,
but it is God's works. He is not going to give us welfare. We have to
work for it (rewards). Paul exhorts us to finish the race but he is not
referring to the race for salvation, I don't think but I need to read it
again sometime. The 4 scriptures you use prove my point. They refer to
the simplicity of the gospel and how those Jews were so hell bent on
adding things to it such as circumcision, unclean food.
I
agree, with you, and just to add that there is not only a deeping of
the works done but the gospel is also extremely hard to understand and
apply in our everyday lives. We do not leave the gospel in our initial
salvation to being simple, we rest in Christ. We are justified , given
His righteousness ,and yet that gift is not easily understood.
That
is what the 5 points are about. How to understand the relationship we
have to law and works and rewards. This distinction has blossomed into
real reformation and has had a most single impact of whole societies for
the good. Justification led to a reformation under luther. It freed the
average church goer of false ideas of gospel- law applications. It
placed freedom into the hands of the novice from darkness to a personal
bible to embrace the work of supernaturalism in reading the bible and
understanding it through the work of the Holy Spirit. It gave men truth
for free. Free grace, free love, free authority, freedom to dissent!
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| 9537
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Forums / Main Forum / I'm Sorry...
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on: February 25, 2006, 09:16:35 AM
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Mark
i am glad that you feel free to speak your mind, i have enjoyed your
honesty. I apologize for the spirit that i manifest in some of these
disputes as we must learn to discuss these things in a loving way yet
firm. It takes alot of courage to accept all 5 points. It takes real
study and prayer to come to a realization that God must be God no matter
how we feel. I pray that he gives us the strength to accept some of
these resistent areas in us that want to shake our fist. It is true that
Gods love must over shadow our message as Mark says. Yet there are some
darkness in us that precludes some serious challenges in love tho that
we must accept in order for us to be free to love God and others. The
message is not necessarily all incumpassing but is directed into the
depth of thinking and then feeling. It takes courage to face some
startling things as the message goes deeper. Please do not give up
discussing these things and disagreeing with them, because sometimes the
seriousness is seen in the reaction.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Calvy-armny Teachers
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on: February 25, 2006, 05:53:00 AM
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I
agree with you vandy about the distinction with free will. If you go
back and read the majority of my post i have always explained it as you
have stated. I am an advid listener-reader of Sproul. My problem on the
forum is that when i talk about regeneration and the new will to choose
they tell me that i am reading into the text or i am making it too
diffucult or there is too much mystery. There is a very clear anti
thetical debate going on here. Its not as simple as telling them that we
choose for ourselves. Its what God does in my theology that inhibits
free will in theirs.
As you know this has been a debate
throughout history. I have been told that we now are able to believe
both systems of theology at the same time because there is too much
mystery to make a distinction. They use the two line explanation to
throw water on the historical calvinistic position. I just want to find
the person who holds these to very different doctrinal positions at the
same time and teaches them, and then show me historically who held both
of these positions as a teacher.
I can take you to some web sites of churches or point you to radio programs (and i am not talking about Steve 
that state that doctrinal differences do not matter. Its the practice
that is important. Historical confessional views of discipleship are
being discarded and replaced with a system of philosophy for behaviour.
When you place any system of thinking as equal with doctrine including
the \"too much mystery system\" as well as psychology, false religions,
plagenism,etc. you discard the bible. I here counseling being given
from a psycological viewpoint first and then the bible is thrown in at
the end or little trickets of scripture given to support that viewpoint.
Seriously when someone tells you doctrinal differences do not matter
and that its just the practice ,what they are saying I know better than
God. My philosophy should have equal time with the scripture. They have
such a low view of scripture that inspiration will become an issue
probably before the next generation. That is really the next rung on the
ladder at the bottom..
| 9541
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Forums / Main Forum / Election And Predestination
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on: February 24, 2006, 02:38:15 PM
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He spends the whole first half of romans saying that man is without
excuse before God. All men are under condemnation. Then He says that men
escape the condemnation in Christ.
Exactly. God is soveriegn and we're responsible. God has decreed everything that happens and we could've done otherwise.
I can't explain it. Paul didn't bother. So we have to live with it.
Now you know cc that he is not speaking of sins of commission and
omission here. He is not placing mans practice as the reason for being
under condemnation. Rather he is saying that man is responsible because
man has original sin. Man just shows himself to be at odds by what he
originally possessed. Even not hearing the gospel is an excuse. The
creation around him is enough to damn him.
The whole reason for showing this is to build his case for that foreign righteousness. Arbitrarily imputed.
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| 9543
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Forums / Main Forum / Election And Predestination
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on: February 24, 2006, 01:42:48 PM
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If the hardening of Pharoah's heart was
sovereignly decreed by God, then Pharoah had no choice in the matter.
But if Pharoah's hardening was contingent upon his disbelief and
subsequent disobedience before God's decree was set, then God isn't
soveriegn.
Who can resist His will?
Who are you oh man to talk back to God.
When
we come to reason with Gods soveiregnty we do not conclude that there
is a tension but we conclude that we have no right to question God about
what happens in our lives or the people around us. We just accept the
God will be God and that what He wills comes to pass and then we rest in
that.
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Forums / Main Forum / Election And Predestination
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on: February 22, 2006, 08:17:55 PM
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Mark,
I'm responsible:
Joh
5:39 You examine the Scriptures carefully because you suppose that in
them you have eternal life. Yet they testify about me.
Joh 5:40 But you are not willing to come to me to have life.
God's soveriegn:
Joh 6:43 Jesus answered them, "Stop grumbling among yourselves.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him to life on the last day.
You ask me to reconcile those two facts. I say I can't. Actually, I say, outside of God, no one can.
Does God's election make Him a tyrant?
Rom 9:19 You may ask me, "Then why does God still find fault with anybody? For who can resist his will?"
Rom
9:20 On the contrary, who are you-mere man that you are-to talk back
to God? Can an object that was molded say to the one who molded it, "Why
did you make me like this?"
Rom 9:21 A potter has the right to do
what he wants to with his clay, doesn't he? He can make something for a
special occasion or something for ordinary use from the same lump.
Rom
9:22 Now if God wants to demonstrate his wrath and reveal his power,
can't he be extremely patient with the objects of his wrath that are
made for destruction?
Does that let me off the hook?
Rom 6:1 What should we say, then? Should we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2 Of course not! How can we who died as far as sin is concerned go on living in it?
Bottom line: God is soveriegn, I'm responsible and I have no claim against God nor could I.
I
know it is unsettling to accept. But I think the reason for it being
hard to accept isn't that it is unbelievable, but because we fallen
humans crave to make sense out of things...even if we don't have the
information to make sense out of it. It is very difficult for me to
admit that I don't know and will probably ever know, unless it is with
false humility to gain standing among Puritans. Otherwise, it's
madenning.
But then, that drives me to Him. If I could figure all this out why would I need Him?
I
have a hard time reducing this whole truth every time Calvinism comes
up. I have a difficult time with any reductionist effort. It seems to me
that this is our difficult today. We use the two line theory to make
both sides happy and then by reducing this we create a philosophy that
throws out the antithetical process in coming to truth. Granted this
two line theory is a historical explanation of Divine sovereignty and
mans responsibility. Yet it was seldom mentioned in all of the writings
that i read. At least pre 1900
It seems like we are giving up ground
as Calvinist by reducing this important distinction. As a baptist
growing up i always thought that faith was a gift from God but as to
Him being absolutely sovereign that was from that devil ,Calvin. I like
to think of God as sovereign yet i also saw that foreknowledge as God
having tunnel vision. In reasoning like this the two line explanation
never challenged my misunderstanding.
In believing that man was
responsible in the way i used to believe it, i really opened myself up
to all kinds of other extra biblical authors like Freud because man
being responsible and then seeing sin and then seeing all the problems
it was an acceptable alternative to my theology of free will and
responsibility.I saw sin as a result of human relationships and not a
problem of the heart.
I have a lot of questions about the two lines.
Does the space in between the two lines represent mystery? I mean is
there total mystery in between mans will and Gods will? What about
Romans and the question Who can resist His will? Their in my mind is a
connection. There is always His line falling on my line. I want my will
and He transforms it.
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Forums / Main Forum / Election And Predestination
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on: February 22, 2006, 06:11:43 PM
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You ask what books I read besides the Bible? At the moment I am
re-reading a book called "The Doctrines of Grace" started by James
Montgomery Boice and completed after his death by Phillip Ryken. (I am
bad with names and THINK Ryken is the name). Anyway, it is a defense or
explanation that Calvinism is absolutely essential to correctly
understanding the doctrines of Grace, and for the future of the
evangelical church.
I read books of different stripes. I read text books on theology, such as the Moody Handbook of Theology by Evans.
I appreciate Ray Stedman. I don't know, I read a lot of books, but don't seek out ones that will just butress my point of view.
On
the next question, I believe no one comes to Him unless he is drawn by
the Father. Christ said that. I believe that somehow a person makes a
decision. I experienced that. I don't believe I would of if not drawn by
Him over a long period of time. Was I predestined to do so? I believe I
was. Do I remember considering the options and thinking long and hard
and resisting? Yes. After all that I remember making a concious decision
that I at least thought was my choice to make at the time.
I am NOT a theological genius, as I am sure I make clear.
Jeffery
I am beginning to see why people can believe two opposite theological
systems at the same time and not flinch at that. I think here in your
post you are taking your pre salvation experience and the actual
experience and you are reading your experience into the scripture.
I
might be wrong here but when you say that this is what happened to you
and there for us \"extreme calvinist\" are not describing your
experience then we are wrong and you are rite. The problem with trying
to read an experience is that we cannot see these mysterious things
going on inside of us. We can come to some really strange conclusions
when we go by experience only.
I believe that the scripture tells me
of my experience. It defines my experience. The word and the Spirit work
together to define what that experience is. If we just depend apoun
some emotion that looks like saving faith then we are going to be
deceived. If we do not have a faith that is drawn out of propositions in
scripture then we are going to be all over the place in our christian
life. Confusion breads coldness in our worship.
Confusion is not
drawing your faith from propositions. Confusions is just an emotional
roller coaster. In worship if we have confusion there will be a cold
heartless emotional draw. It will appeal to the flesh. Calvinism is warm
and is centered on the heart. It is not confusing. It is scripture
defining experience. It is the Spirit working with the word on the heart
through preaching, that is long sermons, not little storytelling
sessions.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Spiritual Depression
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on: February 18, 2006, 03:38:23 PM
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The
purpose of salvation is to bring us to glorify God and enjoy Him
forever. We live in a world were we have many voices pulling us in all
kinds of directions. We are sorrounded by the ungodly who are pulling us
certian ways. But really the important things are what we desire.
Salvation is really about us and what we think of God.
Its not even
about the wise counsel of men verses the ungodly counsel. It is an
inward reality that our desires are made new. We are people who had
desires for ourselves all our lives and then we recieved by grace new
desires. It wasnt even about the moral change or the accountability of
men. Remember the reason desires are so important and not counsel of men
is because men are sinners too. Men are going to be helpless too. Men
are going to die. Desires do not die.
When we have new desires they
are toward God. God has spoken in His word. Our desires are so dependent
apoun the spoken word of God that it is impossible to enjoy Him without
His word. The word and the Spirit are the means to approach God. The
desires are the caboos to know God and His word. When we delight in God
we delight in His word.
The only other voices we are hearing are
from ungodly men. There is a spiritual battle going on every moment of
every day. Ungodly men are always crying against the word of God. They
hate God and His word is not alive to them but condenming. They make
plans, the bible calls them plots, scemes, arogant thinking, hunting
down the helpless etc. These desires are in direct opposition to new
desires of a christian. We here these messages and then we must test the
spirits to see if they are rite. Remember this is a spiritual battle.
These messages are not just an attack against God but they go against our spiritual longings.
They
erode our confidence by that ringing message \"you trust in God let God
rescue you.\" That erosion in our desires must be replaced by Gods
spoken word. We are not just fighting against the sin in others but we
are fighting these voices and attacks against our desires from the
wicked. The more we recieve these attacks without descernment the more
coldness we recieve.
This is a spiritual battle in our minds first
and then goes to our spirits.That is why we must learn how to delight in
God and His word. We must understand that our initial desires are so
flooded with grace that we have freedom in the Spirit stamped in these
desires.
These longings are in a war between the word of God and the
ungodly men. Our longings are more than just an emotional exhaustion.
These longings are Spiritual in nature and they are oriented in the Love
of God and who God is. There are some inward battles that are fought
for to inflame these delightful longings but we are dealing with the
relationship the word has to them and men.
I can say after years of
meditation that i have learned to descern these attacks by what other
men say to me. I do not think they are aware of these things. But we
live in a world where these spiritual bombs are real.And i have said
many things i should have.
If we want to be happy we must meditate on
Gods word. We must decifer everything we hear through the word. We must
test the spirits because even christians are sinful and do things to
unmotivate us. We must become familiar with grace so that if any other
message is recieve we will immediately throw out the false.
When we
ruminate that is we read the word and then we read it again and we study
it and then we think about it. Word is God speaking directly to us
through that word and reminding us of His motives and love for us. These
messages inflame our desires. These reminders ruminated over work with
the Holy Spirit to give us such a heavenly longings that we are very
keen on what a false spirit looks like.
We live in a world where
there is so much counsel. It is full of counsel. Really the only counsel
we can trust ultimately even in christian counsel is the word of God.
The word is a grace oriented message. The word is the means of grace.
Grace is antithetical to the world. Grace is opposite to our natures.
Grace is ultimately understood in the inflamed desires , that delight in
GOD. Ps. 1 and various other PS.
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