5324	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: predestination	on: March 19, 2009, 12:55:36 PM
Quote from: osiris041282 on March 19, 2009, 11:59:21 AM "I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road. " --Stephen Hawking  I dont think that life is filled with making an equal choice about every movement we make. I mean there are things that we do as a matter of habit. And then there are habits that are involved in a succession of going to a destination that involves all these individual motions. We dont go to the street to choose to look both ways. But we come to a street because we are going to a destination. Our desire is to get to the destination and then we will get what we want.In between our end desire and the actual moving in the direction we are really choosing to find the end by walking to a street. But when we move our feet in that direction then we are choosing to fulfill our end desire. I mean if we did a thing based upon and equal choice then we would never move toward the object of our desires.  This is why there are things about what we desire that may be impossible for us to get to. We may want to walk to a destination and in the middle of walking realize that we dont have the strength to go further. I mean just because it is impossible for us to do something does not mean that we are not free to choose. If we desire something that requires a large amount of strength and we are not able to meet that resistance it does not limit our liberty to choose. We just cannot do this thing at this time. So that we say that the stronger desire is not always what we know is rite. I mean we can rationalize about what is rite.. we can know what is rite but it doesnt mean that we are going to do it. This is not limiting the liberty in our choice. We do exactly what our strongest desire is even when it is impossible for us to have the strength of desire to do what we know is rite. We still choose to do what we want for ourselves by our desires. But if you have an equal choice then there is no desire one way or the other. There is no rite usage of the word, impossible,necessary, unable, and able. There is no force at all. There is no will at all.There is no cause at all. There is no liberty in this. There are many reason why one person may be able to do something that would be impossible for another person. Both people still have full liberty of choice.
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5325	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: predestination	on: March 18, 2009, 07:56:11 PM
Quote from: THOR on March 13, 2009, 04:23:27 PM Quote The best you could possibly do is try, based on Eph 1:11, to suggest that people are not predestined until they believe.    However, in order to argue this you would have to ignore the teachings on unconditional election.   Romans 8 is clear that all who are elected are predestined. . .  And Eph 1 is clear that God elected the saints before the foundation of the world. Rom 11:2  God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Know ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Obviously foreknowing doesn't mean that all of Israel were saved and faithful people of God.  Paul states that all Israel is foreknown. (meaning God has a plan specificaly for them) Even though Israel is God's Chosen (Elect) the Bible does not spare its rebuke of the people of Israel for their transgressions, and informs them that, "I have known only you of all the peoples of the earth; therefore I will visit upon you all your iniquities" (Amos 3:2). Chosenness implied responsibilities towards the other nations (e.g., Gen. 12:3; Ex. 19:6; Deut. 4:6-7; Isa. 49:6), even suffering on their behalf (Isa. 52:13-53:12). Abraham and his descendants were God's Chosen people, but that did not mean that everyone got a free ticket into heaven. If they disobeyed God or fell into unbelief then they were punished or cut off from Israel. Sanctity and superiority are promised as a consequence of obedience to the covenant, not granted as an outright gift or presumed as a national prerogative. Same with those who would believe in and follow  Messiah. This is the Jewish concept of Chosen, being foreknown and Election. There is no difference in the New Testament if you accept and believe that God does not change His concepts or ideas. Why would The Eternal change? He doesn't have to. But man always corrupts. Individuals continued to be accepted and part of the Chosen people if they believed and obeyed. Predestination as Calvinist understand it came from Augustine in the 4th century who had a classical Greek background and the Church at that time was well into anti-semitic views.  The Greeks believed in the Fates and the concept of a fixed destiny could be seen in Homers books. Even Paul said he pressed toward the goal of perfection and the resurrection which he had not yet attained. Php 3:11  If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Php 3:12  Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Php 3:13  Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, Php 3:14  I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Php 3:15  Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Doesn't sound like he was a Calvinist does it?  If Paul said that, then that is what he believe, and the words he used in his epistles concerning those in Christ being predestine is being twisted and taken out of it's context of time and Jewishness. Thor Yes Thor.... gentiles are dogs ... we understand .. wow we say that God is superior and you ... well ... i may be wrong but. 5335  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: March 18, 2009, 12:05:42 PM There is one reference that i can think of that refers to grace as being a license to sin. It is in Jude. 1: 3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.: 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. It is interesting that the apostle in the verse prior is setting the context for his argument. Now then salvation is through faith alone , by grace alone, in Christ alone. Any other view of this is replacing the sovereign position of Christ with a view of man... a philosophy of mans achievement. That is why when you look back over the history of contending for the faith you will find that the position of authority was always from the men who argued for the solas. Its really not Judes argument that men make Gods grace cheap. But men change the grace of God into licentiousness. He is not saying that grace is the reason men practice sin. He is not mixing grace with any thing. For the definition of grace is that grace is unmixed ...it is not caused by anything other than Gods willing it to be given. Any other view is denying the sovereign Lord who bought you. Now these parallels to the rough sea, the stars that fall, and the stains are all references to the world as a system.Grace is not a system...it is not a principle of conduct... grace is a favor of God... it cannot be put in a succession of events... with the effect as changing its position in the events. Grace precedes all reality in time. Grace was given in the garden after the fall even tho men had not sacrificed an animal just after they had sinned. For wherever sin abounds... or the existence of sin is... grace much more abounds... or it is the cause of men being under sin but not as bad as they could be as a slave to sin. Grace keeps men from going in sane from the presence of sin. Grace precedes repentance so that all of the positive receiving in salvation... all of the ability to turn to Christ is preceded by grace. Repentance is a means of grace. Repentance is not a way to get grace. Repentance is not believing. Repentance is not faith. Repentance is simply seeing yourself before the holy law of God as not meeting any of its requirements. Grace precedes as an ability to see the law. But the turning to Christ has no power from law. The law only condemns. The law does not.... listen now!... the law does not work righteousness... the law works death.Grace is the only reason that we can apprehend Christ. There is no ability in man to meet the condemnation of the law with a satisfaction of requirement in man. Then grace is no longer grace! See in reading further Bonhoeffer... he is equating grace with belief. ... or grace as belief or trust. But grace is the reason for the belief not the trust itself. If grace were equal with our believing or being a disciple then grace is earned in the amount of trust. This is work. It turns the gospel over. The point is that belief is enough if it is a mustered seed. Now that is a very small... the smallest seed. So that grace is much greater than a mustered seed. Grace is not necessarily an evidence of belief...it is the reason one believes and it increases as one doubts. Now this is not really true. The law of Christ is the law of love. See ...our discipleship is one of failure not one of suffering in order to fulfill the suffering of Christ ... as the definition of discipleship. He does not demand a level of suffering as proof that we are His disciple. Paul did not wish any of his suffering to be put on anyone else. But we are only required to obey as we are able. That is the law of love. Christ does not treat us as being retributively responsible for our sin as we fail to keep the law... but He treats us according to a standard that He keeps in His promises and we fail to keep to His law. This is the activity of grace. 5336  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: March 17, 2009, 08:53:27 PM There are some problems that are involved in the meaning drawn from the scriptural mode of a healthy view of God and of oneself. First because people bring their own experience, learning, and relational baggage into the art of finding the meaning in the entire context of the bible. Its really not a problem as it relates to the intake of scripture. Because the scripture is not a set of principles. The scripture is not really letters and words...i mean in the mode of sense to perception. The scripture is living... it is Trinitarian...and just as God breathed into Adam the breath of life... so God breaths new life in His revealed knowledge. Now there is an artistic understanding of the mystical communication that is not so easily implanted as the healing mode in the application of His power in that life. First because scripture must be understood. The meaning of the scripture designs the reality of the entire function of a persons inward experience and the way of viewing the world in light of this communication. This is why when we are encouraged to get wisdom... we are required to seek it with all of our hearts... to sell everything for wisdom... and to search for it as we search for gold... for wisdom is more precious than rubies. There is a very important component when scripture is ingested as food. And that is... it makes a mans life of great value. A mans life does not consist in the things he has... it is finding the gold of wisdom... after much seeking... that is to ingest Jesus to the point where there is no message in scripture that is not of the essence of Jesus... that is ... Jesus is formed in the mind. For when Jesus is formed then all other things are removed from ones vision of viewing wholeness. Brothers... from Gods view there are a multiplicity of connections of reality that are a mystery to us. All of these causes... means and ends in the intricately woven nature of reality are the frames of health that cause us to view this world as God sees it. Our connections based upon our knowledge... that is there is a moronic view of this world... there are very intellectual views of this world... then there is the average between. Well God sees detail... God does not have thoughts like us. This is the gold of wisdom. It is necessary to get a whole counsel meaning of all of the individual doctrines. So there is more than just reading scripture. Its learning in wisdom. Or gaining an understanding of the meaning by the doctrine. Because within the frame of a persons disposition is the continued adding of one weight of glory to another. For we could never change our general attitude in this life by a performance from principle influence. Theres got to be a transformation of the understanding. Reply Quote Notify 5337  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: March 17, 2009, 02:00:18 PM God has made us different than any other living thing on this earth. He has made us with a soul...that is a mind, will and emotion. Along with this array of faculties we also were given the life of God... that is we were givin a consciousness so that we are aware of this spiritual reality... its a transcendent desire motif. We have a self reflective view of who we are. What we think... understand... and in a conscious reality and connect to this transcendent oneness in identity... this is who we know ourselves to be. I am considering this identity in a dual manner rather than that old di cotomy influence. I mean ... there is a difference between conscious reality and the function of the soul. The conscious reality is more than an intellectual understanding. It is a flow of divine communication that comes from our being united with Christ. This conscious reality is communicated to us in that nature that we have of the entire soul change... our will... our emotions..our mind. But just like when we go to sleep...then we are not fully conscious of what is going on around us...when we wake up... it takes time to gather our senses...i mean in a physical sense.. it is like this in the supernatural realm. We are not always living according to our identity in Christ. We experience this terrible d illusion of faith at times as well. There are psychosomatic illnesses that have an effect on our soul. Some people suffer at a different level of feeling the spiritual struggle. The reason that i offer this new view in this separation from our spiritual condition of the soul as the reason for our illnesses is because it is too much in diagnosis and not enough in experience. But just because we have a new nature so that we wake up to the transcendent... we begin to feel ... taste ... touch... the divine. ..yet we still are subject to a sort of sluggishness even in the use of scripture and the other means of grace. I think...if we just keep our identity in Christ as a separate awareness then that has more mystery in all of this than i am prepared to unveil... yet we can be assured that Christ will never fail us even tho we are experiencing some of the awareness of a soulish... an earthly struggle. This struggle in our identity consciousness has an effect on our tasting and touching the reality of the life of Christ in the soul of man. We still in our experience are waking up from a very dead state in our former bondage to sin. But there is a sense in which this rejoicing or revival paradigm increases... shortens... deepens... this conscious level of our unity with Christ in a much more rapid manner. I mean if we picture the soul in the body.. and then we die ... we are in the presence of Christ.. we are united in an absolute sense.. we require no more faith. But we still experience eternal life in this life. But we do not leave our bodies to be united with Christ. Because there is this communication... this teaching of the Holy Spirit.. who causes the reality of this united paradigm to enlighten... infuse... ignite.. this conscious level to our whole being. So that we feel our souls being lifted in our bodies... that is we rejoice with a fore taste of heaven where we will be united in full experience. Well this is just one part of this identity... which even extends to the unity of the Trinity... that is being in Christ is being one with the Father ... in Christ. Ok ... i will stop here.  I will defend myself from the higher life accusation. Reply Quote Notify 5338  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: March 16, 2009, 12:24:53 PM Now we know that whatever transpires in the universe of our experience transpires in the universe of Gods display. If indeed God has created everything in this universe then God has given us the display of His glory. The reason that these elements of matter are formed in Him creating beauty is for the purpose of showing us the kind of disposition of who God is by what He has made. He is what He willed to be. There is a transcendence in all of the beauty that God has made. For even tho this universe is finite... in a space in time.. yet God is infinite and eternal ... there is no parts in God. For if there were parts in God then it would mean that He was limited from the part in His infinite wholeness. So that the finite points to the infinite... because we see all of the beauty of Gods attributes in the beauty of the finite. For there is no place we can God where God is not. If we go up to the heavens He is there ... if we go to the depths of the earth He is there. So that even tho we are subject to a succession of ideas and experiences ...with God every thing is already.. .with God there is no succession. Everything points to His glorifying Himself in the eternal good. God expresses His will through His transcendent holiness. He wills things into existence according to His eternal power. So that everything that transpires in this life ..whether it be through the wills of men is Gods speaking into existence. For Job said... the Lord gives... and the Lord takes away...blessed be the power... authority... name of the Lord. There are only two things that happen in relation to our existence ... receiving something or losing something. So that there is nothing that comes to us that has not come from His hand. So that if we measure everything according to our ability to understand anything... then we only know God as we know this finite world. We say the power of God is displayed in the wind... the lite... the shaking of the earth.. the silence of a storm. But God is other... He never sleeps or slumbers.. for He watches over us in a timeless vision. We have a nite and a day... but with God the nite is like the lite of t he day.So that when God speaks He speaks as the first cause of everything that transpires. For He speaks and summons the earth from the rising of the sun to the place where it sets. He shines forth..His glory is always on display... for God cannot be lesser than He is at anytime... He is eternal. When we get a vision of the Greatness of God... the Most High in all the universe... for there is no place where all of God does not inhabit in all of eternity.. as we define eternity. His glory shines forth throughout aions and aions of space ...for the vision of the invisible God is being consumed by the contemplation of His bigness. God speaks!!!!!!!!!! 5340  Forums / Key Life Forum / Re: 'The Death of Evangelism' on: March 14, 2009, 01:08:37 PM You can view these things in religion about people... the power exposure and the friends in the light of relationships and meetings. Its our natural desires that bring us satisfaction. So the entire human race shares in a little comfort... then you attach a little goodness to it and what do you have?... Misery in a box of chocolate. The truth is there is a skunk under every connection to a pure natural desire. We are truly hypocrites in our quest for self fulfillment of a religious sort. Come now.... really... dont be so shallow about your view of this practice!!! I mean... look .. i know its really important to seek all we can for His graces... i really mean for ourselves!!! But please dont think there is a pure flow of righteousness as a result. Are you crazy? One mans religious fervor is another mans reason to compete for significance. Could it be that this practice is actually pre loaded with greater tendencies for self deception... for dis ingenious in the fading religious high experience. May i say... truely that it may be more profitable to morn over our condition... it may be that we think the opposite of what He is saying to us. There is joy in the sorrow of our foolish playing.