5207	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Second Baptism	on: April 11, 2009, 12:53:19 PM
One of the things that we do is... we define our view of spiritual realities... the way we think...the kinds of formation of the sentences we use.. how we know what a struggle is... about sin.. about anxiety... about finding a change in the people we listen that is comfortable... and the kinds of situations that we feel are less threatening in how they effect our general mood all have to do with the nature of our understanding of reality. Now since this is a thread about the Spirit then lets look at this as the effects He has in His being present with us... as the comforter and the great counselor... so that His attributes are our experience. That is He is where His fruit is displayed... and He is where He is more present in His influence of what we feel and know to be in our influenced disposition. He speaks as being effective in changing our level of reality in His eternal weight as we feel led and moved up to experience in this eternal immunation of Gods presence. He leads us to the rock that is higher than us. Here the influence is being raised to new heights of experience. The rock is the level that is beyond our ability to achieve in our own experience. Where the Spirit is there is freedom. Now then if the presence of the Spirit is a divine influence then there is going to be a releasing of the tension of this world... for the world has a weight that pushes us down. But here the release is a level of pleasure in His present power to influence our souls to find a new height of His communication. Here i am... my soul is influencing me in some way..it is my presence in this world...it is the influence that is around me... it is the view i have of the powers as they enter into my senses.But then my soul has betrayed me. It has been weighted down within me... its the flesh with its condemning voice... the pull of many different pleasures... the low view of something that is present about me. Only attached to objects that have no relation to bring me higher than i am. It is my normal disposition. Now how the soul is designed to experience these other beings.... the pleasure of the Spirits influence is that which we are made to  experience. We have no rational reason to find any comfort in pleasure... it is a presence that is in our own mind. We cannot find real comfort in ourselves. Here then we must experience the presence of our souls being influenced by the power of the Spirit. For when we are made like a child... our souls become a satisfied child within us. The Spirits influence is drawing us... moving us... molding us... reviving us... so that we are led out of our finding comfort in these other pleasures. Now then there is a big change in being revived. It is more real than a physical attachment.We feel the weight of the pleasures of the presence of things and people in knowing the kind of change we experience in His divine wooing. Now then our waiting for something... our attachment to  the moment experience... the turning from these general moods of satisfaction... and the searching for a new presence is the new influence in raising the soul to a new heights.Here is this most intimate realty. Its the secret place of the souls joys. So that the Spirit becomes the chief communicator of all of the souls new discoveries. The attachment to the Spirits secret workings are the silent communication that the soul rises within. Here then is the revived fire that one experiences.
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5208  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Catholic Question about John 6 on: April 11, 2009, 11:29:52 AM Soc ... it is a pleasure to have these discussions. Although i may come across as a bit dogmatic and sarcastic at times ... I still am enjoying these discussions. Discernment is the application of knowledge... and in the application of knowledge there are two proposals i have about discernment. One ... being able to interpret scripture with the view of the near context and the far context. This is the entire counsel method. The other is being able to see how a particular teaching will effect the state of mind of a person... that is having t he necessary elements of causal relationships to the expression of the reality in presenting the proper determination in an act... and developing a biblical world view by that constant training in this free disposition. I am saying that true freedom is expressed in this kind of discernment. The problem i have here in this disagreement about what is meant by the bread and the wine. In applying logic to this issue... i find that the proper comparison to calling the bread the actual body of Christ ... or the tran substantiated elements... is that in order for the bread to become His body it would need to have His personal attributes in the elements. My  question is.. who would cause these elements to change and what would be the evidence that they actually are different than they appear to the human eye. Since there is no proof that they appear different to the eye.. then what you are describing to me is not a physical transubstantiation. You are describing a spiritual one. Heres where the problem comes in. When you call the bread His actual body ... then you are saying that His bread body is the same as His personal body. I mean if it were less than His body then it would have no physical attributes as a defense that it actually is His body. But the text says that the bread is His body... not Him offering His personal body. The logical comparison to this is that Christ body would need to be duplicated in order for you to prove that His physical body is being presented in different places. Now.. if you are saying that the bread is spiritually Christ body then my logical question is ... where in scripture does the spirit of Christ... His divine nature mix with His human nature? The comparison would be that He could learn all truth as a human being in an instant. Or He would have not suffered the effects of pain because His perfect power would have been efficient enough to with hold the pain. But this is not the case when you study scripture. The divine nature was always separated from His human nature.  Now  then this is very important to being able to discern what reality is.... since He suffered as a man... there is no confusion about this.As God ... He knew all things... was in control of the universe... and was fully able to meet the requirements of a praise worthy attitude in being a man. As God He is eternally present... as a man His is only in one place ... He is presently in heaven. There fore there is no such thing as Christ physical presence here on earth at this time. Reply Quote Notify

5209  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Catholic Question about John 6 on: April 10, 2009, 03:22:59 PM Quote from: Great2bHIS on April 10, 2009, 02:51:25 PM Quote from: socrates4jesus on April 10, 2009, 09:52:57 AM Are you certain what you say is based on Scripture?  Please take another look: Quote For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Ephesians 2:8-10) What i hear you saying is that the word gift describes the word faith, and that is what i've heard good Bible teachers teach, as well.  However, i've heard other fine Bible teachers (some whose names you might easily recognize)say that the word gift describes grace, but NOT faith. Hi Soc, this is a hit-n-run post because I have 3 beautiful nieces to color Easter eggs with this afternoon. --Joker did a good job of making my point.  Remember I suck at grammar, so I can't point-out anything to you via that.  faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God That little (—) inserted in there gives the grammar dummy here an indication that it's a continuation of thought or description  Besides that these other verses speak to me the same message through The Holy Spirit-- Rom 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.   Hbr 12:2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.  2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:   Quote So, this brings two questions to mind: (1) How do you and i spiritually discern which interpretation is the truth? Via the Holy Spirit teaching us & giving us discernment.  Quote (2) Since both interpretations cannot possibly be true, does this mean that some Christian Bible teachers who we respect are, at times, spiritually discerning and, at other times, spiritually deceived? I think we could probably have a thread as long as this one on discussing all the aspects and deep things of faith, or wisdom, or grace, or discernment, or ________ My first measurement to figure out how things line up: anything I have of worth or value comes from God.  He is my ALL in ALL. Everything else is filthy rags--fractured things.  So I run everything through that filter first. By grace is speaking of the whole of our salvation. And Paul said . I am what i am by the grace of God. Then Paul in discussing his work that he had performed for the church said that origin of all of his work was the grace of God that was in him. Self explanatory. Reply Quote Notify

5210  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Catholic Question about John 6 on: April 10, 2009, 11:25:27 AM Quote from: socrates4jesus on April 09, 2009, 08:46:20 PM Quote from: mybigGod on April 08, 2009, 01:18:04 PM Now as to the spiritual knowledge. There is a factual knowledge about Christ. We must ascent to these facts in order to claim that we have apprehended who He is. But facts are not enough yet essential. In other words if i know something is true about Him then i will believe that it is who He says He is. But in order for it to be saving it must be mixed with saving faith. In my natural self i am blind to who Christ is. But when He brings His divine light .,.. the knowledge of the glory of God from His word then that intelligence along with the reality ... the experience of who He is then is implanted in my soul. That word of God grows into an understanding of Him. He gives me faith in order to believe in Him. This saving faith is based upon my understanding based upon my knowledge based upon His nature that has been implanted by His word. This is the reason that i have saving faith. MBG: I think that i did not give your reply the consideration it deserved, and i really want to understand how i can know when i am spiritually discerning or spiritually deceived.  So, when you have the time, i'd like to explore this with you. I agree that faith is the means by which you or i put our trust in the facts.  Faith, it seems to me, is believing what one already knows is true, but not the means by which one receives truth.   One might say that it is by faith we believe, but by some other means we receive. It's that receiving that i'm after.  I mean, i have no doubt you have a firm faith.  I have no doubt this Michael has a firm faith, too.  By faith, you both put your confidence in what you believe to be the truth.  Yet, what both of you believe cannot possibly be true, for you believe contrary concepts.  I could go on to talk of others i've met who have a firm faith, such as atheists (who believe God is not real) and Satanists (who believe Satan is the most powerful and benevolent God) and Jehovah's Witnesses (who believe Jesus is not God but Michael the Arch Angel.)  You and them all have faith.  Yet, faith has not kept all of you from being deceived. The question, then, is this: Since it is NOT faith by which we discern (or receive) truth, then what is the means of obtaining the truth?  Now, i know you say that the truth is given to us by the Holy Spirit.  But giving is not the same as receiving.  So, even if it is God who reveals truth, what is the means by which someone like me can receive what only He can give?  Let me define these differences and the kind of faith that we are presenting here. First because if one embraces something different than the other one then both of us cannot be describing the same faith. So that we have a fundamental difference on how we receive the reality of who Christ is. We are describing two very different concepts of Christ as He is presented in scripture. I am saying that Christ that i am presenting is the Christ of scripture. Historically speaking ... i stand on the side of the reformers.  I know you are trying to say that faith without works is dead. And i agree. But saving faith will always follow evangelical obedience. So that you are trying to reverse this... as i am reading you. You are saying that the work is evidence of saving faith. But i am saying that not all work is good work. The reason that i am trying to slow this conversation down is because i want to present something that is clearly different in the expression of faith before we move on to discuss what is a good work. Micheal is saying that the body and the blood presented in the sacrament is the actual body and blood of Christ. He is saying that the elements change into this concept that Christ has said was His body that was taken by the disciples. He is saying the Priest has the apostolic authority to substantiate the elements. He is also saying that this is the only way to receive salvation... all other authorities are not qualified to infuse righteousness ... only those men who have been given that authority by the Pope ... the succession of apostolic authority. Can we agree on this before i move on to my position and the reason that I believe that it is not the same kind of faith?  Reply Quote Notify

5211	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.	on: April 09, 2009, 08:59:26 PM
We know that God hates sin because it bars men from the goodness that God has determined for the whole world to experience. Sin turns men away from what is praise worthy in creation... the relationships that people enjoy..and the general welfare of a normal society. Sin not only blinds men to the effects it has... but it leads men to do unnatural acts. Sin is literally missing the mark of what is truly good. In having this kind of rule in society then... sin destroys whatever is in its path. The effects of sin as the negative consequences that it works in a city is like a spiritual tornado that goes through the city and levels all the united efforts of the building blocks of the fellowship that men enjoy with in glorifying God .. .and with one another. The effects of sin are devastating. Christ came to conquer sin and the devil and in doing this work... he conquered the power of the fear of death that held men in bondage all of their lives. The fear of death is all that is related to the negative effects toward general welfare of a society. In other words the Father not only took care of sin by imputing it on His Son but in fully paying the penalty of death Christ freed us as if we were prisoners being released from the condemnation of the law and the fear of death. But it is not completely done away with. Thats why we see Jesus who humbled Himself and took on a body ... subjecting Himself to temptation. He had to be made like His brothers in every way in order for Him to be able to be a faithful a faithful high priest in the house of God. Now when we face sin and temptation... Christ is able to help us who are being tempted. Now in helping us... He must come to our aid. Not only by giving us grace.. but protecting us from temptation... the effects of sin... and the devil. This is why He is the captain of our salvation. In granting us freedom from our prison... Christ has begun to deliver us from the power of sin. Not only has He given us salvation in the past ... but He is continuously saving us from all of these things that make temptation as strong as it can be. We are tempted from within and without. This world is a rough ocean because sins effects are working against the saving work of Christ. This is not a process we are going through. This is a transformation... a deliverance. We are being protected from the powers of this world... the flesh... the lust of the eyes... the pride of life. Sin is seeking to control us... to put us back under the bondage to the law and to the fear of death. Christ is a mighty warrior who has completely disabled the devil. He is still in the process of delivering us. We are personally experiencing the right hand of the Majesty on High. Because we are call by His name.. He represents us in all of His authority on this earth. He answers us in authority .. by His mighty right hand. He delivers us by this power. This is the way in which we experience ongoing salvation. Now then ... this is a real and effective way to understand just how much power that is available to us. He says that if we had the faith of a mustered seed that we could move nations. How are we going to see these nations moved? Its not by God saving every man so that peace will rule! But its by God working through His power... His dynamite power in its working in us to deliver the righteous on that day. Every minute we spend in this fellowship with the power of His resurrection... in this understanding of the power of His rite hand... is that by which we will have grown in our salvation! 5216  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Catholic Question about John 6 on: April 08, 2009, 01:18:04 PM Quote from: socrates4jesus on April 08, 2009, 12:49:41 PM Quote from: mybigGod on April 08, 2009, 10:23:30 AM When we get into the areas of assurance we are dealing with the vary foundation of spiritual awareness. Its possible for me to be deceived about having a saving understanding in which i actually possess the nature of this spiritual change that the Holy Spirit has performed in my new understanding. In other words it can be my five physical senses that are deceiving me. So in examining myself i looking at what He says is evidence that i have this new nature. The reality of a believers assurance is that when he examines himself then he actually becomes more aware that he enjoys this assurance of his present position because he has been given the grace of assurance.  The law crys out you are guilty... you are not righteous...but grace is more powerful than sin and the law. Instead of feeling the condemning power of the law... he experiences the grace of assurance. I mean if i asked the question... do i have the fruit of the Spirit...are my motives for doing things from His nature implanted in my soul or do i still choose to be good because of some other purpose... for self? Then the law condemns me but grace heals me in the examination. I actually get assurance that grace is present in coming to His word and finding sorrow over my failure. This happens because of my spiritual union with Christ.  Well, let's say you are driving in a car at night on a narrow road up a mountain, with a cliff wall on your left, and a 200 foot drop on your right.  You lose control of the car and break through the guardrail and the and begin the 200 foot drop to your death. Let's say at that moment you wake up with a start, with your heart pounding, and sweating profusely.  At that moment, which of your senses had deceived you?  It could not be your eyes, for they were shut when you saw yourself falling to your death.  It could not be your ears, for they did not hear the screeching of the breaks and the crash as your car's bumper plowed through the guardrail.  It could not be your sense of smell, or touch, or taste, either. So, if it was not your senses that deceived you in your nightmare, what was it? I think you are mis understanding what i am saying here. First the reason that we go over the guard rail is that we dont apply the knowledge we have learned about how to drive. Now there is human knowledge that has nothing to do with spiritual enlightenment. Just like you have human faith that the road is not going to cave in from under you as you are driving so you know by learning that if you dont turn the wheel that its your going to go over the guard rail. But just knowing does not mean that you are going to do it. I mean ... is there a moral part of the equation if you decide to go over the guard rail? Of course there is! You desire to live rather than die. Maybe the reason that you are going to make the turn is for a purpose of going to your destination. But this is not just from an intellectual knowledge that are trying to get to the destination. Maybe you have been on a long trip and you are reuniting with your wife. So you are really not thinking about the choice to go over the rail or not.I mean you are driving to the destination because there is a knowledge that the one you have spent all of these yrs with... the joy and pleasure you have received is stronger than the desire to go over the guard rail. Well you see my point... that knowledge is not just an intellectual fact. It has a pleasure in the knowing. Knowledge of something always has the experience of that thing in it . It has a pleasure that causes you to choose one thing over another. Now as to the spiritual knowledge. There is a factual knowledge about Christ. We must ascent to these facts in order to claim that we have apprehended who He is. But facts are not enough yet essential. In other words if i know something is true about Him then i will believe that it is who He says He is. But in order for it to be saving it must be mixed with saving faith. In my natural self i am blind to who Christ is. But when He brings His divine light .,.. the knowledge of the glory of God from His word then that intelligence along with the reality ... the experience of who He is then is implanted in my soul. That word of God grows into an understanding of Him. He gives me faith in order to believe in Him. This saving faith is based upon my understanding based upon my knowledge based upon His nature that has been implanted by His word. This is the reason that i have saving faith. Now ...if you can show me in scripture where Christ humanity crossed over to His divinity and vise versa... then you can convince me that His bread is actually His body. So i know i am rite. You know your friend will tell you he got that from the Apocrypha. If you can show me were His human presence was in two..three or four places at the same time.. or where He literally engulfed the whole sky with his body ... wow... its not heroin i promise.  I dont want to see Him offering bread that He says is His body as proof. I want to see a place where His body is actually in two different places at the same time. Or parts of His body. In other words just focus on the physical not the spiritual. You know my name is Thomas.