In
other words, MBG, how do you know you are spiritually discerning and
not spiritually deceived? If you can tell me how you know, then perhaps
that will teach me how i can know the same for myself.
When
we get into the areas of assurance we are dealing with the vary
foundation of spiritual awareness. Its possible for me to be deceived
about having a saving understanding in which i actually possess the
nature of this spiritual change that the Holy Spirit has performed in my
new understanding. In other words it can be my five physical senses
that are deceiving me. So in examining myself i looking at what He says
is evidence that i have this new nature. The reality of a believers
assurance is that when he examines himself then he actually becomes more
aware that he enjoys this assurance of his present position because he
has been given the grace of assurance. The law crys out you are
guilty... you are not righteous...but grace is more powerful than sin
and the law. Instead of feeling the condemning power of the law... he
experiences the grace of assurance. I mean if i asked the question... do
i have the fruit of the Spirit...are my motives for doing things from
His nature implanted in my soul or do i still choose to be good because
of some other purpose... for self? Then the law condemns me but grace
heals me in the examination. I actually get assurance that grace is
present in coming to His word and finding sorrow over my failure. This
happens because of my spiritual union with Christ.
| 5221
|
Forums / Main Forum / Re: Catholic Question about John 6
|
on: April 08, 2009, 09:00:25 AM
|
Spiritual
discernment is ...believing that Jesus is present with you... as the
definition of the Trinity... that does not have any physical
relationship in access to the quality of your salvation. And worship is
lived out before God in all that we do.
But, MBG, i did
NOT ask what spiritual discernment DOES, i asked what spiritual
discernment IS. You appear to have told me what should be spiritually
discerned, not how spiritual discernment is accomplished. So, what IS
spiritual discernment? What is the means by which all spiritually
discerned things are discerned?
Ok when we are regenerated
by the Holy Spirit we are made completely new. Our old wills are subdued
...that self will... and we are given Gods will... along with this we
are given a new nature so that we have a new understanding of spiritual
things. In our new working understanding ... wer are caused by our
minds in having new spiritual senses to be able to know Christ. The
reality of how we view our lives.. our circumstances ... our
relationships... our purposes.. and our loves is completely made new.
Now we value one object as the only way to understand the value of our
purpose in this life. We are constantly under the desire to seek His
face. We desire to seek His face and we then choose to seek His face.
All of our desires that come from these new spiritual senses like sight,
touch, taste , and feel are fulfilled by the only object of our
affection ... Christ. We no longer belong to ourselves... our old self
has died. Spiritual discernment is having our spiritual mind trained
to view life through the kind of spiritual understanding we grow to
have as we mature in the faith. But once we understand the gospel of
grace then it defines the reality of all that we understand about
everything else. It is the spiritual overriding illumination that lights
all of the other truth.
|
 Reply
 Quote
 Notify
|
|
5222
|
Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Second Baptism
|
on: April 08, 2009, 08:48:15 AM
|
You are welcome Tom.
I
think it was Luther that said we should preach the gospel to ourselves
lest we become discouraged. We need constant reminding of the marvelous
saving grace of God. A quote from the Scotish preacher Robert Candlish
who I have been reading recently:
Let the prisoner go
free; let the guilty criminal be acquitted, justified, accepted; for an
infinitely, worthy substitute has been provided, to undertake all his
responsibilities, to meet all his obligations, to answer every charge in
law against him, every demand in justice upon him, to plead for him in
the trial, to stand for him in the judgment. Alas! that this simplicity
that is in Christ should ever fail to satisfy.
What a Savior!
Bill
Yes
Bill... In Rev. Christ is presented in an eternal fashion. He says of a
believer... behold i stand at the door and knock... if any man hear my
voice i will come in to him and sup...fellowship with him. This is one
of the only places in scripture where it says that God actually
fellowships with us. And in some ways our available to be at the door is
interrupted with our hardness to see the value. Since we have been
given a new and living way to enter into the throne... we can have
fellowship with the Father through the Son... by the Holy Spirit. Peter
says the we rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory. Here is
where this revival fire is experienced. Even tho Christ determines at
the time and place of the kind of experience in this fellowship... yet
this Spirit of power as a witness is available in our knocking and
persistent seeking.
|
|
Reply
Quote
Notify
|
|
|
5223
|
Forums / Main Forum / Re: Catholic Question about John 6
|
on: April 08, 2009, 08:34:12 AM
|
... Here are some scriptures that tell us how to understand the things of the Spirit:
1 Cor 1:19-24
19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
20 Where
is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this
age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21 For
since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know
him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to
save those who believe.
22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
(NIV)
1 Cor 2:6-14
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However,
as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has
conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"--
10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
11 For
who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit
within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the
Spirit of God.
12 We
have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from
God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The
man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the
Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand
them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(NIV)
beacon2
Perhaps
your actions, Beacon betray your words and you really ARE trying to
help me find the truth? If you are, i DO appreciate it.  I think you and G2B have tried to make the same point, to wit, you both appear to be saying that Jesus words
"Does
this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was
before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I
have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of
you who do not believe."
(John 6:61-65)
mean the same as Paul's words:
This
is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words
taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the
Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot
understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(1 Corinthians 1:13-14)
That
is, Jesus is saying that i will never understand His words in John,
chapter 6, if i do not use spiritual discernment to interpret them. Is
this what you are saying? And if this is the point you are trying to
make, it makes sense to me, but i'm not quite sure i understand what you
believe spiritual discernment is. I thought that i was relying on
spiritual discernment, but perhaps i was wrong. Please tell me, how
would you define spiritual discernment? What exactly is it, and how
will i know with certainty when i have it?
Spiritual
discernment is ...believing that Jesus is present with you... as the
definition of the Trinity... that does not have any physical
relationship in access to the quality of your salvation. And worship is
lived out before God in all that we do.
|
|
Reply
Quote
Notify
|
|
|
5224
|
Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Do we sin because we don't love God enough?
|
on: April 08, 2009, 07:43:07 AM
|
|
We are commanded to love God with all of our
hearts, minds , wills. That means we are to love Him with all that we
are. But we do not love Him like we should. Not for a second.
Heres
the thing... God teaches us how to love by loving us even when we dont
love enough. He has give us all good things. This is grace. He protects
us, He gave us His Spirit as a comforter, He gave us His word. He is
pleased with us even if we are not able to meet the standard. He
encourages us, He upholds us, He guides us, He speaks to us, and He
causes all things to work together for our good. All of these promises
are ours in Christ and not so that we can lecture God on our new
understanding. Because He has given us His Spirit, then He has made it a
matter of great importance for us to know, feel , and experience His
love. Thats why He constantly reminds us in His word.
|
|
Reply
Quote
Notify
|
|
|
5225
|
Forums / Main Forum / Re: Catholic Question about John 6
|
on: April 07, 2009, 02:32:40 PM
|
Willis: I'd forgotten the response i was given when i quoted Jesus
"I
tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me
has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from
death to life. I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come
when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear
will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the
Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge
because he is the Son of Man.
"Do not be amazed at this, for a
time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and
come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have
done evil will rise to be condemned."
(John 5:24-29)
The conversation went something like this SOCRATES4JESUS: Jesus said, "whoever hears my words and believes him who sent me HAS [present tense] eternal life," didn't He? ROMAN CATHOLIC MICHAEL: That's what He said, except for the, "present tense," words that you put in His mouth! SOC: Well, i do not see what else the word HAS means. Notice that He did NOT say will have, but HAS eternal life. RCM: True. SOC:
I'm glad you agree. Do you also concur that if i have (as a present
possession) eternal life today, and tomorrow i lose eternal life, then
what i lost was never eternal in the first place, was it? RMC: I disagree. SOC: Really? Why? RMC: Consider the context of the passage, it makes it clear that you are mistaken. SOC: How so? RMC: OK, let me spell it out for you: SOC: Please do, i'm listening in anticipation to learn something new! RMC: No doubt you will learn something new, though it's not clear you have ears to hear. SOC: Just continue. RMC: Very well. Does Jesus say in the passage what eternal life is? SOC: Why would He? Isn't that obvious? RMC: Perhaps. Then again, you might be overlooking the obvious. SOC:
Please, don't leave me in suspense! Open my eyes, if you can! But let
me be the judge as to whether you are giving me sight to my eyes or
trying to poke them out. RMC: Fair enough. In the passage you
quoted, Jesus says, "For as the Father has life in himself, so he has
granted the Son to have life in himself." SOC: Agreed. RMC: Would you say this life the Son of God has in Himself is eternal or temporal? SOC: Eternal. RMC: So, eternal life is in the Son of God? SOC: Yes, that's what He said. RMC: But you said it is in YOU. SOC: At what are you getting? RMC: Only at this: Eternal life is in Christ, for He is the Life, and the Living Bread. SOC: I'm not sure i understand. RMC:
HE is eternal life. So, when you have eternal life, you have Him. If
you lose Him, you lose eternal life. You no longer have it, for you no
longer have him. Yet, eternal life does cease to be eternal, for He
cannot cease to be. SOC: I see. RCM: LOL! Then i haven't plucked out your eyes after all! I
suppose, Willis, that this Michael might use the same argument to prove
me wrong if i said Jesus' words in John 6 contradict Catholic doctrine.
The thing is, i don't know who has the truth--you, or this Michael. You
both have sound reasons why i should believe each of you, using the
same passages of Scripture to make your points! Yet, both of you
cannot have the truth. With whom should i side? or how do i know who
is on God's side? Christ is fully man and
fully God... the hydrostatic union is unmixed. Its impossible for Him to
be in physical parts in the entire universe. God is a spirit ...He has
not a body like man. God is eternal in nature. All of His creation is
good and will go on for all eternity future whether in the present form
or another better form. When the scripture uses the words eternal
life... its talking about the quality of that life and not the
duration.First because we could never be attributed eternal in
duration... we had a beginning and our bodies had a beginning. Christ
Himself became a man. But in spirit Christ always existed as the Son of
God. Christ is the eternal Son of God who always was... but He took on a
body. So in a sense not even Christ body is eternal. I mean in duration... His humanness had a beginning. Thats
why that we are dealing with eternal life as a quality of life. It is
literally a life in Christ ... not partaking of Christ. Eternal life is
an identity and substitution not a participation. First of all we do not
order the end from the beginning. Gods determinations in these
relationships within the trinity and with those who are identified with
Christ have very little to do with time because God is eternal ... He
is not subject to time..He sees the end from the beginning. We were
chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. We were not chosen by
participation. We were chosen ...salvation was according to His
sovereign will and power. You cant see will and power... you can see the
effects of will and power. That is what is holding us in Christ. Not a
participation. Spiritually we have the nature of God... we are the
temple in which God dwells. Not by participation but by possession.
Spiritually we possess eternal life because we are in Christ. What ever
is Christ is ours by rite ... who are in Christ. substitution "But
I suppose it will not be said that he was so for himself, and therefore
not for us. We owed obedience unto the law, and were obnoxious unto the
curse of it, or 260ὑπόδικοι τῷ Θεῷ. Obedience was required of us, and
was as necessary unto us if we would enter into life, as the answering
of the curse for us was if we would escape death eternal. Christ, as our
surety, is “made under the law” for us, whereby he becomes liable and
obliged unto the obedience which the law required, and unto the penalty
that it threatened. Who shall now dare to say that he underwent the
penalty of the law for us indeed, but he yielded obedience unto it for
himself only? The whole harmony of the work of his mediation would be
disordered by such a supposition." Owen
|
|
Reply
Quote
Notify
|
|
|
5226
|
Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Second Baptism
|
on: April 07, 2009, 11:30:18 AM
|
Tom (MBG),
I
think really we are closer to agreement that it might appear.
Throughout scripture, the need for God's people to examine themselves
and confess their sins to Him is a recurring theme.
I agree with
everything you said about our relationship with Christ as believers and
the security that we have in His grace. That is not the issue; but
rather the issue of fellowship or may I describe it as intimacy. In any
love relationship, when we offend our beloved, confession of wrong doing
is required for the re-establishment of intimacy.
There is a
temporal forgiveness that is part of our walk with Christ. We need to
experience His forgiveness on a moment by moment basis.
I had a
good friend ask the following: "Bill, how is it that God can both see us
perfect in Christ, cleansed by His blood and clothed in His
righteousness, and yet see how we struggle with sin in this life, and
grant forgivenss for these sins as a loving Father?" My answer was the
following:
I don't know but this seems to be the clear testimony of Scripture.
Bill
Yes
i agree.. in a some what simplification of a very hard to grasp reality
of these variations of assurance. When we are talking about the
difference between doctrine and experience it really does become a
matter of growth as to the level of understanding and discernment we
have in our world view from informing our new mind. This makes all the
difference in what we trust in as to these matters in persevering.
Having spent most of my adult life chewing on these Psalms of lament ...
ascent ... as well as imprecation ..i would say that these verses of
confession and forgiveness carry the weight of an underlying
supernatural ism... revealed only as we become more enlightened about
who God is and consequently how we see ourselves in the light of
mortifying these sins. The more we gain insight then... the more we will
see that grace is pulling us along in this very slow change. Thanks
Bill... good stuff.
|
|
No comments:
Post a Comment