Yes Jesus is not talking about a transference
of a reality by any other means in between heaven and the soul. We can
know Him by His revealing Himself by His Spirit. We may know Him by His
revelation... but His revelation is not Him. I mean there are general
promises to all of His saints .. but there are specific purposes that He
does to each of His children. So that in knowing Him we are familiar
with Him as He is a man.That is all of our motives in this life center
around His earthly experience in coming and humbling Himself... so that
our circumstances find their purpose in His life... our lives are lived
by the reality of His life in us. The foundation of that reality is
knowing Him in a present way... a way that in which He is the focus of
all of our thoughts motives in living with a worshiping disposition in
all of our circumstances. If this is the foundation then He is
speaking... He is speaking in a quiet voice. And it is by His guiding us
that we will know that He is our all in all.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: predestination
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on: April 01, 2009, 10:18:17 AM
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Thats
the heart of the difference between what you are saying and what we are
saying. Man cannot limit God ... but God can limit man. You are saying
that man can limit God by willing something that God does not will. We
are saying that God wills every thing that happens. You are saying that
God does not will everything that happens. We are saying that Gods will
is evidenced by His absolute power. You are saying that Gods will is not
absolute in its power. Other wise there is nothing that happens that
God does not will.
No! God wills, free will. That's his
Will. Can't God will, free will? If God gives you free will how does
that go against God's plan? The universe is a combination and
chaos and order. That's science and also everyones experience.
Perspective on anything can be the difference. Man doesn't 'limit' God
just because he is allowed by God the exercise his human will. You limit
God because you can't conceive of a God that is quite able to run the
Universe and handle uncertainty. God is a lot more able that you give
him credit for. God is so powerful and great that there is nothing that
can happen in a universe of possibility or probability that He can
handle or change if He doesn't like it. Indeed, God destroyed the world
once with a flood in order to reset the stage (divine intervention). Does God have a plan? Yes! Will it happen? Yes! And this in the universe he has created and the free will God has given man. Do we have to repent of our sin and turn to God and believe on Jesus Christ to be saved? Yes. We are not saved because we believe we have been predestine. That is another gospel and false. Do you trust only in Jesus to be saved? If so then that's all that counts.  Thor
This
is very simple.... If God expresses His free expression of determining
everything that comes to pass then man cannot possibly determine that
expression of reality ... independent of Gods free expression. First
because man is limited by God in the power of expression.... in other
words if you made a car then because the car cannot drive on its own...
it is limited ... but you made the car so that you might use according
to your will. The car has limits according to your needs. Now in
comparison to God ... man is a worm. Worms are not very able.
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5268
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: predestination
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on: April 01, 2009, 06:45:01 AM
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Well,
Learning to Learn, what I meant was that I don't think God predestines
one person to heaven and another to hell, at least not in the way that
idea is usually proposed. It's more like what happened with King Saul or
(back in Exodus) with Pharaoh. Jesus gave Pilate and Judas every
opportunity to do the right thing. The whole question of predestination
is actually the question of God's supreme will vs. man's will. I think
it's the wrong question. My personal experience is that when I made the
decision to accept Jesus it was by my own free will, yet now, looking
back, I see that God actually chose me. He's been guiding my life, even
when I was ignoring Him. Yet I positively know that I made the decision
for Christ. How can it be both? Well, maybe it's the wrong question. The
facts are that 1. God is supreme and 2. I have free will. That's what I
was thinking at 1 am the other day.
It sounds like you
are saying... i dont like Calvinism because thats not how i experienced
it. There are a lot of reasons we may decide from one day to the next.
Some that do not have any relation to salvation. We dont proof text
scripture by our own experience.
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5272
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: predestination
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on: March 29, 2009, 01:02:23 PM
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WOW! You all are doing some thinking.
But I think you missed the bus. I know I did. But I just recently found it. It goes like this:
Just
a few days ago, studying Ephesians, I began to realize that
'predestination' does not mean what I thought it meant. All Our Heavenly
Father is trying to tell us is that He chose us 'from the beginning'
and thus we are the object of HIS LOVE. The emphasis is on the fact that
love is not a feeling but a choice. It is His choice to love us. The
reason He tells us that He made His choice 'from the beginning' is so
that we will understand just how important we are to Him. To repeat, the
message is that He chose us because He loves us.
I am sure some
of you can point to specific verses which 'prove' that God choses or
predestines specific individuals. I think that's wrong. Jesus died on
the cross for everyone. That was planned 'from the beginning' because
God knew that Adam would sin. John 3:16 tells us that Jesus died for the
whole world. God also knows that not everyone will accept the gift of
salvation, but 'whosoever' accepts the gift will be saved.
All
this discussion of predestination misses the point. We have a lot of
ego/pride tied up in Calvin vs. Armenius vs. Open Theology vs. anything
Satan can use to distract us from God's love. We need to keep the main
thing the main thing.
The mystery is that God loves us so much
He sent His Son to die in our place. The message is God's love (agape)
and not that this or that person is destined to this or that end.
Wow....
i could not imagine a better fairy tale than to create a world where
all of the different denominations drop their dogmatic spirit in
teaching doctrine ... for a more romantic venture on the unity of all
religions around the world. Lets forget the past focus on doctrinal
clarity where there were strong disagreements.. and men were serious
about being correct... this is the cause of all of our troubles in
relationships! I mean... if mommy and daddy would have taught the ...
taking responsibility to another level then we would be so dependent on
avoiding the relationship with such an argumentative and angry tone to
our differences. What a fairy land of non avoiding relationships. If
God actually chose to create a world that He left for man to practice
the morals of human responsibility then of course man has a free will to
do as he pleases as long as its not avoiding the process of building
unity! Why then man is able to transform another man... he is able to
see with clarity and with absolute understanding all of these problems
and then create the change in his process of change. What a great way to
be able to grow together without the whole history of the reformation.
After all history only teaches us that men focused on knowing and then
left the doing to us... this great religious unity of the 20 th century.
After all we have left a legacy of strong churches... revived religion
and an increasing prosperous nation in such a moral society. Give me a
break!!!!!!!!!!! 
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5277
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Christians: MORE LIKLEY to get divorced.
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on: March 26, 2009, 05:39:47 PM
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Shame is really an expression of pain in
failure. I dont think we can fully understand how in our struggle with
sin in view of our particular weaknesses add fuel to this whole paradigm
of shame. Obviously we all are going to be extremely vulnerable in our
particular make up about our personal weak frame of mind. I mean we are
all very weak in certain areas. So that maybe the heightened level of
performance based expectations is sorta like a self inflicted wound to
our general reaction to failure. It really is a self hatred. In some
ways there is always in our tendencies to push the issue ... to have
this underlying anger below the surface. But something that is foreign
to shame is a disposition of grace. But in many ways a lack of self
awareness could be misconstrued in a misunderstanding of the nature and
definition of the application of grace in ones attitude in experiencing
true forgiveness. This also is a lack of understanding about how one
views himself in this level of shame. Some people say that shame is
from an over focus of ones self and his own weaknesses. But in a sense
there is a need to get to the root of these tendencies to accept a level
of pain in determining how much one must endure in the slow and ongoing
change. Now then forgiveness and the application of peace in the new
communication to an old sound track to the function of this accepted
level of shameful subconscious (depressed forethought) determinations as
to causes and ends to all the thought processes of infusing shame in
self inflicted weakness must be this encouragement to a new level of
grace. This is part of the teaching of the Holy Spirit as the new
replacement of finding the reality of the Fathers love." I will be a
Father to the Fatherless.
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Catholic Question about John 6
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on: March 26, 2009, 12:54:14 PM
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Makes
sense to me. But what i was wondering is how do you know it is true
that the BODY of the MAN Jesus has the same properties as your body or
mine. Specifically, i wanted to know how you know that Jesus' body can
be present only physically. It seems to me that in order for a body to
be immortal, it must be significantly different from a mortal body. The
gospels give evidence that His body could materialize and dematerialize
at will, that it felt no pain, and had other properties that one would
not attribute to a mortal, physical body like yours or mine.
The
bible never mixes Jesus body with His deity. My that would be some kind
of historical revisionism. I mean Jesus was not in two places at the
same time with His body. Or He wasnt pieced all over the holy lands. A
piece here and a piece there. Could you imagine the last supper... part
of Jesus body was cut and they ate that. I mean here is a perfect time
for the presence of His body to be ingested. I am using the apostles
epistemological thinking about circumcision. I dont want to expand here.
hehe. I know its a little morbid but please... that is what mixing his
deity looks like in Truth. And then Mary was eternally pregnant... i
mean... like the 9 months was like theistic ally evolved. As you know i
love to use sarcasm with a little humor to show the lengths of a persons
imagination.If you are going to be consistent in biblical
interpretation then by all means lets get as literal as we possibly
can!!!
True, and that is the objection i raised for
which no one had an answer at the other forum. I learned, that
according to Catholic theology, they interpreted the passage that said
He was "the Lamb slain from the beginning of the world" as meaning that
He always was both the Son of God and the Son of Man in eternity. So,
i asked if they believed Jesus was, at the last supper, in His mortal
body at the table, AND in His Eucharist body held in His own hands, AND
in His immortal body in Heaven. The answer was that that this was
indeed what they believed, and they quoted early church fathers (such as
Augustine) saying the same. That path of the discussion ended
with me saying i could not prove them wrong and them saying they could
not prove themselves right. How it is true, they said, is a mystery,
but it is, they said, what Jesus Himself taught.
See
not the bible does not say that His personal body was offered. It was
another substance. I mean it also says that He sustains are things..
that by Him and to Him and through Him are all things... does that mean
that He is all things? Please! Now just because He is disposition ally
part of His creation does not mean that He is fundamentally those
things. The bible teaches the Gods glory is the end of all the
substances that He created. So that everything He made has in it the
absolute function of all that He is... that ultimate worthiness in the
thing He created... but that thing is that thing. This is my body means
that the substance He is using being different from Him cutting His body
parts.... is a means of grace... a means of spiritual transactions.
Nothing physical but disposition ally effective.
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5283
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Catholic Question about John 6
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on: March 26, 2009, 12:29:24 PM
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How do you know all you say is true?
If
you look at the Nicene creed you will find this worked out in detail.
This trinitarian understanding is essential so that we do not teach
something that is opposed to Jesus as the Truth. Its just common sense
that Jesus being contained in a physical substance as deity is reduces
Him to less than God. God is immense ...as a person... He has no parts.
Then He could not exist in eternity as fully present in the same space
in wholeness. Think about it. See now... if you are going to write
something then you need to understand the difference between a being and
a thing. Cause thats the difference in teaching mysticism and truth.
Makes
sense to me. But what i was wondering is how do you know it is true
that the BODY of the MAN Jesus has the same properties as your body or
mine. Specifically, i wanted to know how you know that Jesus' body can
be present only physically. It seems to me that in order for a body to
be immortal, it must be significantly different from a mortal body. The
gospels give evidence that His body could materialize and dematerialize
at will, that it felt no pain, and had other properties that one would
not attribute to a mortal, physical body like yours or mine.
The
bible never mixes Jesus body with His deity. My that would be some kind
of historical revisionism. I mean Jesus was not in two places at the
same time with His body. Or He wasnt pieced all over the holy lands. A
piece here and a piece there. Could you imagine the last supper... part
of Jesus body was cut and they ate that. I mean here is a perfect time
for the presence of His body to be ingested. I am using the apostles
epistemological thinking about circumcision. I dont want to expand here.
hehe. I know its a little morbid but please... that is what mixing his
deity looks like in Truth. And then Mary was eternally pregnant... i
mean... like the 9 months was like theistic ally evolved. As you know i
love to use sarcasm with a little humor to show the lengths of a persons
imagination.If you are going to be consistent in biblical
interpretation then by all means lets get as literal as we possibly
can!!!
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5284
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Forums / Prayer Requests / Re: I Failed
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on: March 26, 2009, 12:20:25 PM
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abcoh,
thank you for that, the idea that God uses even my most abject failures
for His glory is such an encouraging thought. Patti, my sister, you
likewise are such a never-ceasing font of encouragement for whom I give
thanks for. I will never stop coveting the prayers of you all.
Man
i will pray for you. This is not a good time in how we are defining
truth in the context of our countries direction. Man... it effects us
tremendously to have personal experience seeing reality defined
downward. But we shall persevere. Thank God that when we are losing the
battle that He is winning the war. When we see that all things are not
being subjected to Christ... then we see Jesus who went the way of
humility on our behalf. So that as we fix our eyes on Him we will
experience His everlasting love... unfailing faithfulness and grace..
and living in that we will flee from this world system and the wrath to
come. He will hold us .. Praying for you brother.
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5285
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Catholic Question about John 6
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on: March 26, 2009, 11:59:25 AM
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The
bible does not teach that a body can be in many places at the same
time. God does not have a body...He is spirit. Jesus is God... He was
God as in the manger. Instead of using body lets use human being because
the body and the spirit make up the person who is local or
corporal.Jesus as body is the same as Jesus as spirit. He is one person.
He is one human being for all eternity. God created man body and
spirit. Man is body... man is spirit. These two entities were purposed
to never separate.Death is unnatural.Jesus being God is everywhere at
the same time...only in spirit. He cannot be contained or subjected to
time. One part of God cannot be distinct from another. Jesus is not a
physical element in being God. His identity as God is not a tree or a
plant. But He upholds all things as a person in spirit. But He is also a
human being. He is only present in a body as a human being. His deity and His humanity do not mix.
How do you know all you say is true?
If
you look at the Westminster Confession of Faith ... that is taken from
the creeds ... then you will find this worked out in detail. This
trinitarian understanding is essential so that we do not teach something
that is opposed to Jesus as the Truth. If you fully accept the hypo
stasis of Jesus. Its just common sense that Jesus being contained in a
physical substance as deity is reduces Him to less than God. God is
immense ...as a person... He has no parts. Then He could not exist in
eternity as fully present in the same space in wholeness. Think about
it. See now... if you are going to write something then you need to
understand the difference between a being and a thing. Cause thats the
difference in teaching mysticism and truth.
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5288
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Catholic Question about John 6
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on: March 26, 2009, 08:15:42 AM
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When
you start talking about things material... corporal... local...having
qualities that are eternal then your subjecting a substance to something
that you dont comprehend. I mean that God is not a body as we. He is
eternal.. we are temporal and local. God is present everywhere as
totally God... so in this sense He has a full presence because He is not
a force but a Person. Now if God were all spirit then He could not
really be defined. I mean He would be totally other. But God is Father
Son and Holy Spirit. So that He is expressed to us as an image. The
Father is the cause of all things, He sends the Son who is the image of
God. We know the Father by looking on the Son. The Son is not just an
eternal spirit. But He is revealed because He has a human body. You will
never find in the account of Christ presence on this earth where His
body took on eternal qualities. Even after His resurrection He was
recognized as Christ. Even with the scars. When He went up to heaven He
said that He is coming back as He went. If the scriptures present our
fully conscious experience as a personal present in heaven... with Him
then it would be a textual problem to think of Him as not local in body.
He is the eternal image of God. He always existed as the Son. But He
was revealed in time.
Yes, MBG, you or i cannot possibly
be in two places at once. Well, Einstein proved it was possible to be
in two parallel universes at the same time, but it is certainly not
possible for a human being to be in two places at the same time.
Unless, of course, that human being was Vincent Van Gough who cut off
his ear and mailed it to a lady he admired.  All
joking aside, you appear to agree that Jesus' resurrected body can
exist in both the material world (as shown in His appearances after this
dead guy got up and walked) and in the immaterial world (as shown by
accounts in the Bible that He is seated, in bodily form, at the right
hand of the Father in heaven). That being the case, the reasoning goes
like this: (a) Jesus appeared in physical form after His resurrection (b) So, Jesus' resurrected body had physical characteristics not unlike our own bodies (c) Jesus' body is now in heaven (d) Heaven is an immaterial (i.e., non-physical place with neither space nor matter) (e) So, in heaven, Jesus body must be immaterial (i.e., it must be non-physical, without matter, and existing not in space) Therefore Jesus must have the ability to make His body physical (like ours) and non-physical (like a soul, spirit, or angel) at will Now,
the only way to show the conclusion to be false is to demonstrate that
the premises do not support the conclusion, or to find one of the
premises to be false. One might argue, for example, that premise (e) is
false by saying heaven is a physical place, with matter and space, that
exists in a parallel universe that we cannot see. What i'm doing
here is not trying to say i comprehend what heaven is like, rather,
what i'm doing is showing how it MIGHT be possible that Jesus'
resurrected body can become both physical and non-physical. If
non-physical, it might have the ability to be in more than one place at
the same time, though perhaps only in part and not in whole.
The
bible does not teach that a body can be in many places at the same
time. God does not have a body...He is spirit. Jesus is God... He was
God as in the manger. Instead of using body lets use human being because
the body and the spirit make up the person who is local or
corporal.Jesus as body is the same as Jesus as spirit. He is one person.
He is one human being for all eternity. God created man body and
spirit. Man is body... man is spirit. These two entities were purposed
to never separate.Death is unnatural.Jesus being God is everywhere at
the same time...only in spirit. He cannot be contained or subjected to
time. One part of God cannot be distinct from another. Jesus is not a
physical element in being God. His identity as God is not a tree or a
plant. But He upholds all things as a person in spirit. But He is also a human being. He is only present in a body as a human being. His deity and His humanity do not mix.
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5289
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Catholic Question about John 6
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on: March 25, 2009, 09:16:19 PM
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...
I dont believe its in this particular heaven. I mean Paul talked about
the third heaven. Its described in Revelation. I had memorized the first
three or four chapts a very long time ago. But there are references to
images that are beyond our ability to comprehend. Christ is physically
present in heaven. Absent from the body present with the Lord.
I
believe that we will have access to both heaven and earth in our new
bodies. The new earth will be perfect... somewhat like what kind of
things we do now with things to do for Him. But it will be totally
glorious.
Oh my you reminded me of the Rev. meditations. I got to get back to that book before i die. After Hebrews.
 I'm
thinking that if heaven is NOT material, then i cannot fathom how a
material body could exist there. It would have to be a body, i think,
that can change from material to immaterial as easily as a chameleon can
change from one color to another. What are you thinking?
When
you start talking about things material... corporal... local...having
qualities that are eternal then your subjecting a substance to something
that you dont comprehend. I mean that God is not a body as we. He is
eternal.. we are temporal and local. God is present everywhere as
totally God... so in this sense He has a full presence because He is not
a force but a Person. Now if God were all spirit then He could not
really be defined. I mean He would be totally other. But God is Father
Son and Holy Spirit. So that He is expressed to us as an image. The
Father is the cause of all things, He sends the Son who is the image of
God. We know the Father by looking on the Son. The Son is not just an
eternal spirit. But He is revealed because He has a human body. You will
never find in the account of Christ presence on this earth where His
body took on eternal qualities. Even after His resurrection He was
recognized as Christ. Even with the scars. When He went up to heaven He
said that He is coming back as He went. If the scriptures present our
fully conscious experience as a personal present in heaven... with Him
then it would be a textual problem to think of Him as not local in body.
He is the eternal image of God. He always existed as the Son. But He
was revealed in time.
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5290
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Catholic Question about John 6
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on: March 25, 2009, 08:49:24 PM
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Jesus
will always be the God Man... He is both body and spirit. If He was not
fully man then He could not have had the scars in His resurrected body.
To believe that Jesus did not have a body is to make Him a phantom. To
believe that Jesus was not God is to make Him a liar. Jesus is eternally
God. He is the image of God. He is equal with the Father... one in
substance and yet three in persons. In becoming a man He was doing the
Fathers will. His humbling was becoming a man... or veiling His deity.
But when it says in scripture that He humbled Himself. ... it is talking
about the entire event of His life... His death... His resurrection and
His ascension. In other words He did not become eternally a man. He
still is learning in heaven in His being a man... but He knows all
things and all things are subject to Him because He is God. If you say
that His body is eternal then you are mixing His Godhood with His
manhood. That is heresy. Just remember that when it says that He humbled
Himself it is talking about the span of birth to ascension as our high
preist. His body is still local. He still is all God and all man...
unmixed.
MBG: Do you believe that Jesus is living on a planet somewhere? Or do you believe that heaven is NOT a physical place?
I
dont believe its in this particular heaven. I mean Paul talked about
the third heaven. Its described in Revelation. I had memorized the first
three or four chapts a very long time ago. But there are references to
images that are beyond our ability to comprehend. Christ is physically
present in heaven. Absent from the body present with the Lord. I
believe that we will have access to both heaven and earth in our new
bodies. The new earth will be perfect... somewhat like what kind of
things we do now with things to do for Him. But it will be totally
glorious. Oh my you reminded me of the Rev. meditations. I got to get back to that book before i die. After Hebrews.
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5291
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Really neat twist on an old favorite.
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on: March 25, 2009, 08:42:19 PM
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The
point i think about Zacharias was that he was a tax collector and he
had cheated other people out of their money. In that day they did not
uphold the rites of a citizen... tax collectors were like mob
collectors.
Do you think he was cheating his patrons? He said
upon his repentance "If I cheated I will repay four fold." This plus
giving half his wealth to the poor whould certainly put him in the poor
house or be a vow he is unable to keep. I know that tax
collectors were considered turn coats, traitor, and collaberaters. They
were outcast and offen they were cheating their clients. I wonder if
Zacceus was.
I think thats the point of the four fold. Of
course it was according to the ot law. But whether he could pay it or
not... he was willing to. I think he also showed a very enlarged heart
by being willing to give it away. Christ receives sinners just the way
they are. He deals with people according to the law of love. Its by
grace.
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5292
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Catholic Question about John 6
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on: March 25, 2009, 08:32:36 PM
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Jesus will always be the God Man... He is both
body and spirit. If He was not fully man then He could not have had the
scars in His resurrected body. To believe that Jesus did not have a
body is to make Him a phantom. To believe that Jesus was not God is to
make Him a liar. Jesus is eternally God. He is the image of God. He is
equal with the Father... one in substance and yet three in persons. In
becoming a man He was doing the Fathers will. His humbling was becoming a
man... or veiling His deity. But when it says in scripture that He
humbled Himself. ... it is talking about the entire event of His life...
His death... His resurrection and His ascension. In other words He did
not become eternally a man. He still is learning in heaven in His being a
man... but He knows all things and all things are subject to Him
because He is God. If you say that His body is eternal then you are
mixing His Godhood with His manhood. That is heresy. Just remember that
when it says that He humbled Himself it is talking about the span of
birth to ascension as our high preist. His body is still local. He still
is all God and all man... unmixed.
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