but God only numbers things for us.. He is our
only chance to be acceptable on the basis of a real man coming as
Christ of whom we are attached by an eternal covenant. He met all the
requirements of the covenant by His obedience in His passive and active
obedience. There is no chance of us living with acceptance and
forgiveness if we were not in Christ. But in Christ we are not being
measure for acceptance. We do not have a question as to our chances.
Since we are seen as losing our own lives, the number of our sins and
the availability to acceptance in our own measuring then we find that
nothing that we do as being guilty or being accepted has anything to do
with Gods disposition of acceptance towards us.The only chance is what
we think in our independence of Him. All things are laid bear before
Him. Chance is only in our imaginations. He knows everything from the
beginning to the end.
Reply
#82 on: January 30, 2009, 01:24:30 PM Do you see my point? One cannot
just take any verse out of the bucket of verses that contain a
particular word and say that it is in an equivalent passage! The
Scriptures cannot be interpreted correctly that way!
Just because
you've got some verses that talk about washing and cleansing with
water, that does NOT mean that they have to do with Jesus' forgiving of
sins at the cross! The former MAY represent the latter, but they are NOT
equivalent, and there are instances when it makes MUCH better sense to
recognize that the former does NOT represent the latter!
Roy (aka Retrobyter)
Sorry for the delay in responding Retro-Roy. Had a medical situation at home that required all my attention.
I
do see your point about how to interpret scripture. Let me point you to
an entire passage in scripture that provides support for what we are
discussing here.
This thread primarily has to do with my
showing from the scriptures that there are in fact two justifications,
and that the first one happened and was completed on the Cross.
Therefore,
I'd like to suggest that you take a very careful look at Lev Chap 16.
Here the Lord gives very detailed instructions for the atonement and
tells the Israelites what will happen when those instructions are
carried out. In Lev 16:30, God tells them exactly what will be
accomplished:
Lev 16:30
30 because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you.
Then, before the LORD, you will be clean from all your sins. (NIV)
Notice
that God did not ask the high priest to go to each Israelite afterwards
and ask them to admit they were sinners, confess, repent, etc., for the
cleansing to become effective.
These atonement procedures
carried out annually by the high priest on behalf of the whole community
of Israel were a foreshadow of what Christ, our hight priest, was going
to accomplish on the Cross for the whole world.
Therefore, when
our Lord said, "It is finished," God, in accordance with the picture or
copy He had given us in the Mosaic covenant, declared all mankind
cleansed of their sins right then. This was the first justification,
and passages in the NT attest to this also.
beacon2
If
you look at Hebrews you will find that these different sacrifices that
were presented in behalf of sins could not take away sin. Even tho there
was a sacrifice and it was different according to how much a person
could afford. But sin was always forgiven according to the covenant of
grace given to Abraham. In other words the remnant did not depend upon
the sacrificial system to give them hope. There would be no thank
offering that followed the sacrifice. God even told them that He was
weary of all the sacrifices and then there was not thankfulness from the
heart. There was no calling on the Lord in those days. Publicly the
people were presenting the sacrifices but then they were lifting up the
Aseroth poles and trusting in the god of chance. In other words it wasnt
the worship that God required.
It has always been justification
by faith apart from works. Abraham was justified before he was
circumsized. He was given the promise by faith. He was given the
covenant of of grace and he believed God and it was credited to him as
righteousness. He considered himself wicked, that is he considered his
works before God as filthy rags. In this he was justified by faith alone
through grace alone by Christ alone.
MBG,
We agree to an extent. Let me explain:
For
instance when you say, “If you look at Hebrews you will find that these
different sacrifices that were presented in behalf of sins could not
take away sin.” I will say “yes” to the way you have written this
statement, if you mean that ALL SIN (the sin of all mankind) was not
taken away PERMANENTLY. That is correct. Only Christ did that on the
cross.
However, the annual sacrifices carried out by the high
priest on behalf of the Israelite nation did “take away” or cleanse the
Israelites from PAST sins committed during the previous year; otherwise
God would not declared the nation cleansed and forgiven in Lev 16:30.
Therefore, Heb 10:1-12 has to be interpreted in light of Lev 16:30.
God’s declaration recorded in this verse was not a lie.
But this
cleansing was only a temporal fix. Immediately after, the Israelites
would go back to their own ways rather than God’s as you have remarked.
And the cycle would start all over again. Therefore, the Israelites,
just like the rest of mankind, had to wait for the ONCE AND FOR ALL
sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. This is what the writer of Hebrews is
contrasting: Christ’s permanent cleansing vs. a temporal one under
the OT system.
I agree that Abraham was justified by faith
apart from works before he was circumcised. BUT Abraham received this
justification PRIOR to the Cross. Therefore, he and all the other
saints who were justified before the Cross still had to wait for the
justification that came through the blood of Christ. Their salvation
process was not complete until they received cleansing and forgiveness
for all their PAST SINS through the blood of Christ.
Rom Chap 5 speaks of the two justifications: one by faith and another one by the blood of Christ.
beacon2
The
sacrifices were not the means by which a person is forgiven. The
sacrifices are representative in scripture as man trying to offer his
own ability to receive salvation. Just because they were a matter of an
outward ceremony and done by corrupted men these means could not bring
about eternal life. First because these are temporary means. In order
for God to be appeased of His anger toward sin and sinners He required
and eternal sacrifice. Just because these were means as a temporary
relief as a matter of obedience, the acceptability of the sacrifice in
matters of eternal returns on the work of salvation as coming to man,
was only acceptable in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. He was an
eternal sacrifice. His sacrifice was for sins past and present and
future, for all those of whom He willed it to be.
In the line
of Christ you will find there were gentile converts. These converts were
not part of the Mosaic system of ceremonial laws. They were not
circumsized. That is they did not even have the sign of the covenant.
They were defended by God in being delivered from this present evil
system by no earthy reason at all. All of these prerequisite as of being
accepted by God as part of the covenant community were not met in
gentile converts. Salvation has always been by grace , through faith by
Christ alone. Salvation was according to the covenant of grace alone.
When we sin, then we are required to confess our sins. But our
confession does not bring about forgiveness. Forgiveness and the weight
of guilt as a result is already been taken care of in Christ. A believer
is no longer receiving judgment in relation to his sins, the guilt of
his sins and the eternal judgment of his sins. It is free grace
according to the sacrifice of Christ. It no longer changes the
relationship that one enjoys before the all seeing eyes of the Father.
Who shall bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? Salvation
of a sinner is in God alone. We are very short in matters of confessing,
of obedience, of perseverance. Our sins are more than the hairs of our
head. We come to God as completely accepted and as having all of the
power as if we were sinless. Thats how Christ is to be praise worthy to
us.
Let me say something here about those who are very under
confident. The simplicity of the gospel is shown to those who believe.
We live as if we were being tempted to withdraw from the confidence that
grace has brought us. We live in a world where men go about offering up
idols of goodness so that they might make grace a matter of working for
acceptance. This brings about as much misery as men who go head long
into the most despicable rebellion without one thought that God is
watching. Grace is the most availed power for a sinner who is
persevering through this misery. Men would worship at the idol of
contingency for the sake of holding to a position of power in order to
be able to offer a remedy for a price. That is what scheming against the
gospel is all about. Men who want to have more ability before God so
that they can create a viable list of good things in order to subtract
the glory of Christ work on the cross. When we scheme like this we bring
down the Lord of the universe. We place in His all knowing eternal work
a disability to work as we see He must be according to our free will.
We must confess that our confidence is shaken because we do not react to
this despicable reasoning with a holy indignation. God will not be
mocked.
Not only do we enjoy the fee access to all of the
promises of God found in the work of Christ alone, but we are always
protected by those accusers as a result of this free grace.
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