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5572  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: February 10, 2009, 03:37:03 PM
For too long we have defined the American church experience as an equal amount of effort of Gods sovereignty in this system and human responsibility. What is lost in this argument is the focus on what it is that makes a man choose what is good and refuse what is evil. If i make two things equal then they really nullify the dominate force of one or the other. And in this sense American religion has been as democratic as casting a vote for the men who preach sovereignty and then the other side are men who focus on the practical. So we have a system of synthesis. Now... now ... lets not fight. Cant we all just get along? No one is rite. I mean on the one hand we have the pharisees who rejected the angels ... they were the practical teachers. On the other hand we had the ones who tended to be mystical. They were the theorist.So what Jesus did was he told them they were both rite and that if you put them together then you will have a rite religion. Not... not ... not.

They both were wrong because they were the same religion just given to go from one extreme to another. I always say that the message is the medicine itself. You just listen to the message and you get inoculated from the virus. Its not that the message has two sides to it and you put the two sides together and then you get the pill. The medicine is in the means. Before anyone will choose the object of his affection, he must only see the greater value of that one object prior to his choosing that object. So that the means in bringing about the proper understanding are essential to rite choice. I mean if you use a fork to eat your food then you are enjoying your food by the means of lifting your fork to your mouth. You dont say that the fork isnt prior to the eating and you dont conclude the the fork has no value in the enjoyment. This is why i agree with Gene. In order for us to have a spiritual fellowship we must understand our fellowship with Christ. Christ and His means are the reason we choose anything of value. They are an intricate part in how we choose to live our lives. We cant just by pass the means and get to the reality.
Every connection to the understanding goes into the connection to choosing the object. If we are not acknowledging these essential parts to how we live then we are rejecting reality.


I agree we are all addicted to good things and we are addicted to sin. Every choice is an addiction to what we love. I mean there may be an addiction over a long period of time. But its not in how democratic we are. I mean we can take some of these terms from the philosophical crowd as meaning that we will forever be defined as these terms. But we cant look at these addictions as part of a relationship ...mainly... as Gene was saying the means prior to our choosing define who we are going to understand who we are not what we choose as it relates to our addictions as the cause of our being define by our addictions.

God doesnt want our focus horizontal. This over focus that comes from our understanding is what causes us the anxiety. If you read the prays of the apostle you will find that he really stresses this light to our understanding. Or a deepening of the reality of these powerful means. I understand we are thinking in terms of immediate needs. But God wants us to think in terms of how His connection to powers in the universe define reality. I mean we are thinking in terms of earth quakes, tornadoes, the heat and brightness of the sun, the space in eternity and all of these attributes as He has made us understand His power in comparison. I do not think it is mainly so that we will see that all these horizontal things are insignificant. Its that when we think in terms of all of these major events on this earth then we understand that Gods power is at work in the lesser and there is nothing that anyone can do to thwart His power and control. After all what happens if the earth opens up , then we are helpless.
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5573  Forums / Main Forum / Re: "Is Jesus the Lord of your life?" on: February 08, 2009, 02:14:18 PM
Yes we need to find our place in this world. Ok... maybe there is no place now. ... or maybe we have squeezed the original all American place to be so small in the realm as acceptable behavior and now it is an odd place. I think that we can have such a focus on the wrong things that we can create a peer place. Now its really confusing. Its really a desert experience. We look around and we are all alone ... everyone has gone to their own place. I mean the crowd is not a real crowd. At least we used to feel together even if we were all smoking a stogies at a ball game. Why was smoking acceptable and still be a place of acceptance for everyone? Was it the spirit of the American dream still alive in a family sense? The bible does say that everyone does whats rite in his own eyes. 

When everyone does what is rite in his own eyes ,then our place is outside of the normal world. Now the world uses terms like creepy, anti social, dependent etc. Maybe these are terms to define the niche everyone has marked out so that they feel connect to being defined as in the odd place. One thing is that people are treated as odd even when they need a place of acceptance and love. Is it even possible that we have defined everyones place by what other people think in how they have found their place? If its in his eyes whos to say?
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5574  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: February 08, 2009, 09:12:30 AM
I was wonder whether this is a constant and ongoing experience or whether it was just in dreams and experiences with other people at certain times. My experience has been a steady growth in hearing Him. I think Gene has alluded to this in numerous post about His hearing Poppa. My experience in all of this has kinda been layers of deep calling to deep. I think the deeper we dig into His word the more we are going to understand what kind of pattern He has designed in giving us these messages that are very quiet and in the stillness of our meditations. Now for yrs i have practiced this meditation. But i was always awed by the power of the word. I mean that was where i thought that He spoke to me. But then i realized that when i was meditating in the Psalms there was this total transformation of my view of things. In other words the things that were of weight in my soul were no longer carrying the same kind of heaviness. And then there is this small voice telling me to do this and dont do this, or watch out here and be careful here. Or pray for this person , or this person is struggling here, or this is what you should write. It doesnt seem very understandable to me. I mean why would He want me to react this way in this new situation? Well then when i look back i am very appreciative of Him. So then this grows on me. I mean, if there is another world where we can go and then we can talk and get answers about situations then this is like having another friend who is invisible.

Let me say one more thing here. Well... as you know we live before God.. all this stuff that we see in this present world is just a very small spec to eternity... its smaller than the smallest particle in terms of time duration. Wow, people are going into eternity as i write. Everyday there is a silent exit from this spec of time into a timeless suffering or total joy and comfort. I mean that is what God does as everything before Him is seen from the beginning to the end. He delivers people whether it is in a circumstance or going into eternity. With Him a day is like a thousand yrs. His deliverance is obviously more profound and powerful than anything we can see in this present system. I mean the work of redemption goes on forever in those who He delivers from sin unto eternity. And the rest will be burned up, to deliver this earth into a new one. In the end there is only One protection that is real.

But God communicates by His immense presence in eternity. God is eternally present. Where ever God is present He is present in all of His personage. That is all of His attributes are displayed in every inch of eternity. Thats why there is no place on this earth or anywhere in eternity where we can go that God has not designed for us to be where we are best able to seek Him and find Him. We spend a lot of time planning and worrying about places and times that we are just worshiping the god of contingency. God is the God of all causes that exist. So that He is present in the universe that is unseen. God is greater than we could ever move our bodies one inch without His power and hand to move in an independent way from us. For in Him we move and live and have our being. So that He communicates outside of speech.

The reason that His presence is so overwhelming is that He is greater than our sense to understand. I mean that He proves His power by overwhelming us with the sense of His presence. The SPirit can fall on us so to speak, being that the Spirit is all around us and there is no up and down with Him. But we can be overwhelmed by something that we cannot understand in our ability to a sense comprehension. If God chooses at a specific time to fall on us by His Spirit then we are going to get a taste of what is to come...we are going to have a heavenly sweetness. If we were to live with this overwhelming awe then we would not live to see a full life. I mean we would be swallowed up as if we were expose to an nuclear blast. But He gives us a very profound and powerful effect in His presence so that we will learn not to trust in our five senses. He comes in this way so that we will be convinced that He is all in all. This is like Him stretching our faith. We trust in things we cannot see. Some how the inanimate things are taught by the power of those communications to our physical bodies and our souls. Here we have something that comes on us that is unexplainable.

Now there is a zeal in all of this. If we are very young in the faith, we have heard people say you are over zealous. Its because we are seasoned as we grow up in the faith by this constant training of our spiritual senses to discern what is good and evil. In the sense that we test the spirits to see if they are of God. Not just a moral sense. But we do not have a God who gets us busy so that we will not sound foolish. We have a God who visits us with a spiritual reality of this overwhelming sense of His communications of joy and bliss. This is where the zeal of the Lord consumes us so that even our own family is but a spec in our view of relationships. This communication of His power cannot be thwarted. We just are overwhelmed until He lets up.
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5575  Forums / Main Forum / Re: "Is Jesus the Lord of your life?" on: February 08, 2009, 07:16:36 AM
I hear it too, Tom.
I am not talking about working for salvation.
I am talking about working in light of our salvation.
We got to get back on that horse each time he bucks us off.

If Daniel would have quit, after the lion and the bear, then he never would have slew the giant.
These mountains we face are our preperations for the task ahead.
We must not fail to push against our rock. We will someday need the stength we gain through our efforts.

 My friend...... i would like  to introduce you to Jesus. He has done all the work on our behalf and we cannot do one good thing apart from Him. We are fragile and always straying ... He is always faithful.

 He doesnt just give us salvation and then talk us into being the best we can be. But we are saved by a favor, we get grace. Now grace is the new soil that we live in. Every time we do a good work it is preceded by grace. So that the work itself is only good because of grace.

 When we are declared righteous then our works are still not acceptable since we are still corrupted. The only reason we are acceptable to God is because Christ righteousness has been imputed to our account. We stand accepted because He is righteous.
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5576  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The end for which God created the World: Edwards on: February 08, 2009, 06:59:26 AM
This will better appear, if we consider the degree and manner in which he aimed at the creature’s excellency and happiness in creating the world; viz. during the whole of its designed eternal duration; in greater and greater nearness, and strictness of union with himself, in his own glory and happiness, in constant progression, through all eternity. As the creature’s good was viewed, when God made the world, with respect to its whole duration, and eternally progressive union to, and communion with him: so the creature must be viewed as in infinitely strict union of himself. In this view it appears, that God’s respect to the creature, in the whole, unites with his respect to himself. Both regards are like two lines, which at the beginning appear separate, but finally meet in one, both being directed to the same center. And as to the good of the creature itself, in its whole duration and infinite progression, it must be viewed as infinite; and as coming nearer and nearer to the same thing in its infinite fullness. The nearer anything comes to infinite, the nearer it comes to identity with God. And if any good, as viewed by God, is beheld as infinite, it cannot be viewed as a distinct thing from God’s own infinite glory.

The apostle’s discourse of the great love of Christ to men, (Eph. 5:25, &c.) leads us thus to think of the love of Christ to his church; as considering with his love to himself, by virtue of the strict union of the church with him. “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it—that he might present it to himself a glorious church. So ought men to love their wives, as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself—even as the Lord loved the church; for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.” Now I apprehend, that there is nothing in God’s disposition to communicate of his own fullness to the creatures, that at all derogates from the excellence of it, or the creature’s obligation.
5587  Forums / Main Forum / Re: "Is Jesus the Lord of your life?" on: February 07, 2009, 11:32:12 AM
Jesus is Lord because everything is centered around Him. Everything has been placed under His feet. He is the God of the universe. The heaven is His throne, that is He rules from eternity so that everything that comes into reality was cause by Him. He is on the throne. In this sense there is nothing that we ever do that He has not ordered from eternity. When He speaks it happens. He stills the sea, he brings in the winter, he hurls down hale like pebbles. He blows the cold air. He has spoken His word as in creation as He speaks His word in the new creation.

The Lord is the wisdom of God. Salvation is of God. Salvation is in God. God caused salvation, God sustains salvation, and God will bring the culmination of salvation. He Himself brought redemption to man. Salvation is not of man. Because we have a Savior we have our Lord.  Every time God works in this world He works through deliverance. Salvation is our deliverance from this world and the god of this world into a new realm of the Lordship of Christ. Because we are in Christ then we do everything as if He was representing Himself. There is nothing that has not been taken care of by Him in order for us to not come in His name. We hide in the name of Jesus from the troubles of this world. Since He is Lord then we have full protection from the schemes of men and t he wiles of the devil. We look to Him as Lord because we know He loves us as our Savior. He protects us because there is nothing that transpires in the world that He has not ordered for our good and His glory. So that He has given Himself for us so that we might rest in His rule. He has cause us to rejoice in Him so that we will not be troubled by having to be anxious about anything else. He has made it so that we are enabled to focus on Him and find all we need in wanting only Him. He is the beginning and end of our salvation.
5589  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: predestination on: February 07, 2009, 09:35:56 AM
 If the prophets spoke of the future events in detail then God was bringing about that event through the wills of men. If God was simply looking at an event with His acting following that event then He could not have spoken about the details of how men chose to accomplish that event in its perfect time. Gods decrees are fixed just as His laws are fixed.

11 Kings 19:17Behold, the days come, that all that is in thy house, and that which thy fathers have laid up in store unto this day, shall be carried to Babylon: nothing shall be left, saith Jehovah. 18And of thy sons that shall issue from thee, whom thou shalt beget, shall they take away; and they shall be eunuchs in the palace of the king of Babylon. 19Then said Hezekiah unto Isaiah, Good is the word of Jehovah which thou hast spoken. He said moreover, Is it not so, if peace and truth shall be in my days?

This prophecy was also in effect a prediction of the moral conduct of the people, in upholding their schismatical and idolatrous worship until that time, and the idolatry of those priests of the high places, which it is foretold Josiah should offer upon that altar of Bethel. Edwards

1 Kings 13:1 And, behold, there came a man of God out of Judah by the word of Jehovah unto Beth-el: and Jeroboam was standing by the altar to burn incense. 2And he cried against the altar by the word of Jehovah, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith Jehovah: Behold, a son shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he sacrifice the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall they burn upon thee. 3And he gave a sign the same day, saying, This is the sign which Jehovah hath spoken: Behold, the altar shall be rent, and the ashes that are upon it shall be poured out. 4And it came to pass, when the king heard the saying of the man of God, which he cried against the altar in Beth-el, that Jeroboam put forth his hand from the altar, saying, Lay hold on him. And his hand, which he put forth against him, dried up, so that he could not draw it back again to him. 5The altar also was rent, and the ashes poured out from the altar, according to the sign which the man of God had given by the word of Jehovah. 6And the king answered and said unto the man of God, Entreat now the favor of Jehovah thy God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored me again. And the man of God entreated Jehovah, and the king's hand was restored him again, and became as it was before. 
5614  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: February 03, 2009, 02:50:54 PM
I will tell you something that was just laid on my heart here. I understand these things are very complex. I know by experience that in this life we are most miserable in all of this. Well i guess.... maybe there is some sorrow. I agree that is the process... the pressing down is extremely hard at times. These truths and the reality of living in light of the joys we experience have an effect that last a little while.... well the overwhelming part of Gods communications to us. I think maybe we are encouraged to press down because of our weakness. And then we struggle with taking these things as a free gift and turning them to our own power thinking.... maybe what i am saying is that the potential does not change, that is the potential to receive this grace upon grace, but something changes in us.

Maybe there is this tendency to think that if we are receiving this divine over flow that it is brought along by our humility, or our seeking, or our position as being able to recite these things as if we were doing it out of sheer hard work. Ok.... so we lose our understanding of grace... i mean we become like beast , if we think that God is in some way entrusting these deep things to us to hold onto or to forget so easily. Ok.... here we come to the sorrow of dealing with our flesh. I mean since we receive and press down we may out of our own natural way begin to be less discouraged with our reasons for receiving it when we first came to Him. Ok.... you know when we look back there was something that was apparently having a bad odor coming from within. Just because we have been in this process for awhile then we think that God is somehow more able to accomplish these things through us because of our track record. Now then its not so much the fact that we are creatures of habit that this is less of a sorrowful condition, but its because we have lost a sense of the glory of His grace in this condition. I think our presuppositions inhibit the free flow of the gifts of His grace more than we think the evil of our pride does. This is the refining of our intentions. There is always a free open and honest freedom in this access. I mean we are different than we were at the beginning. Even our sins are a little different. Ok.... the access may be wider, the freedom may be more understood, but our intentions may not be strong enough to take all of this in. After all this is so big it just swallows us up. I mean isnt that what the text is saying? At one point we are attributing evil to our pride more than we need to and at the other side our courage is limited by our weakness in frame.

Ok.... we are in this present deli ma. It looks the same as always. But maybe its a bigger one and a more profound experience. But we have come so many times t o the throne of grace and we have seen some real miracles. Now we think that God is not bigger than this. I mean surely God is going to limit it this time. Now that is our naturalness in being weak in opening up to Him this time. But we must be determined that this will be more of an open plea than the last time. This time we are going to find our motives and our desires to understand and we are going to communicate them in the most open way. We must not look back in the wrong way.
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