Paul says to follow his example as he follows
Christ. Thats the standard by which we are accountable. We are examples
of Christ by having a mature understanding of the liberty of a believer
as well as our struggling with a certain sin. Just because the christian
community falls into a pattern of worldliness doesnt mean that we then
put rules of behavior on certain outward expressions of clothing , hair,
etc , certain kinds of drink, certain places we can and cannot
frequent, and a whole number of behaviors within a persons liberty to
practice. Christ has sanctified all things for use for His glory. Our
understanding of these things demands for us to have a little more
flexibility toward one another rather than using a philosophy to take
away liberty about outward things that the scripture does not forbid. The
problem we have today is that we have a philosophical system in place
in a discipleship program where we encourage the new converts to hold
others accountable just because they have followed the program. They
havent been a christian long enough to know the difference between
gaining a certain freedom over sin through using the scripture to
mortify the deeds of the flesh. So they dont understand the nature of
christian liberty. The new convert thinks that sin is dealt with by
abstaining from certain things rather than gaining control over that
area so that they have an enjoyment of those things and will not give a
certain thing more power than it has. A new convert has the
understanding like a baby who looks at these glories of Christ from afar
so that most of his understanding of these things is mixed with
mysticism and universalism. Christian discipleship starts from an
understanding of how we grow to enjoy the things that God has sanctified
without being mean cause we havent gotten enough self control in an
area in order to allow for others to do them even tho we may choose not
to. This is why there is so much miss application of scripture in
discipleship. Be careful of discipleship programs. Its really unbiblical in many ways.
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Define Your Fear
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on: January 22, 2009, 06:47:20 PM
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Ive thought about this for a long time. Now if
we have in scripture a promise to come to our relief then here is where
we find a relief that will help us find the understanding of a healthy
respect and righteous fear and a shame that brings us into enjoying God
through forgiveness and grace. Now i was thinking that if Christ was
physically present then fear would not be so much an extension of faith
or the lack there of. I mean here we have the friend of the fear
mongers, the horrid abusers of anger, and the most despicable drunks of
that society. Now why did they like this Man God so much? Cause He
preached against their sin? No, it was because they experienced a level
of desperation so that they needed Him with them more than they would
flee. But now here we have this whole concentration paradigm.
Lets face it, Christ was able to help them by being there. I mean if
Christ is present then why be afraid? But its not because we know
something about Him . I mean the point is that He knows what is going on
in us even tho He was present with them and could read their minds. Why
is it that we cannot muster enough trust in order to be able to calm
our fears by this reminder? Whats the difference between Him being here
is spirit or being with them in the flesh. Cause He must have been able
to bring them into an experience of freedom from these things... i mean
if you can see Him with your eyes and hear Him with you ears... ok... so
He has just the rite words and just the rite power that would be able
above the powers that exist in the mind. The only difference was they
did not need faith in order to know that He was sitting there with them.
We require faith in order to apprehend that there is a reality of a
new transformation. Now if we find that we are losing this reality then
we are experiencing that level of fear. Why is the word so important in
finding this transformation? Because the word is the word of Christ.
Its His eternal word. It is as if He were sitting physically present
before us and speaking to us. Now we know that we require some physical
touch in order to have these needs translate into a succession of
trustworthy longings. Now here is where i think we must deal with our
urges. I mean... we have this powerful experience of fear or anger, then
we are under some weight of its present power of experience. How can we
concentrate enough in order to feel as if this power has less of a
dominate hold on our mind action?
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Define Your Fear
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on: January 22, 2009, 05:38:00 PM
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Christ promises to take our fears away. Now
there are fears that will curl a persons hair, and cause them grief all
their days. Fear is real. I am not sure if fear is helped along by
watching something that brings the fear of an object or a person ...
like a movie , but fear can move in like a fog and cause the stomach and
the whole process of digestion to be painful, along with giving a
person heart palpitations. How does Christ take it away? There
really is no definition, theres no promise that it will be completely
taken away on this earth. But fear that is cringing is not really living
with the reality that God is in control and He is near. I guess this is
why its so hard to understand this inanimate power. I mean there are
some fears that are like a normal reaction to a circumstance. Like a
fear of flying or a fear of heights. But then there are fears that have a
deeper level in trying to understand their origin. I think fear , guilt
and anger are like bed fellows. If the spirit of fear is present then
the mind is usually under the power of guilt and anger or shame. Shame
leads to anger. Fear is self inflicted, not in the sense that its made
up in the mind , i mean in the deeper since, but that it causes this
whole process that James talks about in the double mindedness. So that
there is this spiraling down effect, in the sense that we spend a large
amount of time working through this fear in our battle in our minds. A
person who is really fearful usually likes a lot of boundaries so that
any kind of change is very difficult. I have thought about this and i am
not sure if fear has a general mode of inflicting the mind with a
narrow experience as if there was this anger that was the underlying
cause of avoiding the new experience. I mean there may be in a person
who is extremely orthodox this tendency to misrepresent the doctrine
with my sheep hear my voice. It is one reason why i believe that revival
is very helpful in this area. Fear is what causes us to think
less of the importance of the strict adherence to the Calvinistic
doctrines. Fear drives us into semi plagenism. I dont know if its
because fear makes us unable to find enough relief in Gods gracious
communications so that we grow this underlying anger about our spiritual
battle. But i really think if you look at fear, and guilt you will find
at the bottom of that bottle so to speak..... anger. Some people think
that anger is the most evil of the three but anger is the reason that we
are protected from utterly departing. I mean anger that is righteous is
what is the buttress of the soul. But anger that has an averse effect
in us is what is the evil friendship to fear and guilt.
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Why I seem so damn mad...
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on: January 22, 2009, 03:43:22 PM
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Why
do you think they had to make a PDL an seeker freindly hip Church
generation? One gave birth to the other. The legalistic hybrid covenant
style finally drove the people away. People figure it out eventually.
They read and study and get lead by the spirit. The gate is narrow. It's
not broad.
In the legalistic mess and seeker friendly generation ..are we marketing the gospel, explaining from intellect or teaching it?
or better yet..living it?
I agree, there is this practical side about the direction of a church.
But its not because of the doctrine, its still the ...like as old as
God. What we have are people who grow up in a culture of secularism....
like a harlot community and bring in their idols to the leadership. The
success paradigm. Then the direction of the church follows the money
trail. All this focus on families cost money. Instead of watching out
for the needs of the families they go off to some business venture. If
we cant train our young ones then we have no future in the business of
orthodoxy. If the business of orthodoxy is no the practical direction in
support, in the books, in the support through personal prayer in the
homes, and in the prorogation of the catechism in the young minds full
of mush then the most important people in the church will be the ones
who are as deep as a piece of paper. I agree, follow the money trail. When
it comes down to it the real motive is success. I mean lets call the
Aseroth pole in America a lust for success. Every good religious person
has one in his house.
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5661
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Why I seem so damn mad...
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on: January 22, 2009, 03:15:36 PM
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I know Bill...
they
are a changin, and God will not be muted. It is just comical though if
you go do a search for the term "emergent Church" and see what some
Church leaders write about people who don't think like the norm. I don't
believe any of them actually have a good definition of what they mean
by "Emergent Church", but most see it, as they do anything that is out
of lock step with orthodoxy: a huge threat. I think that many today
would be wise to take some ancient Advice from a guy by the name of
Gamaliel:
Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if
their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is
from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find
yourselves fighting against God."
Eric
I agree
Eric, Its really simple as Spurgeon was saying. He was fighting against
the controversy of liberalism. Basically they did not believe that man
was a sinner, did not accept the doctrines of grace or the salvation of
the lost. Church s became places of social change rather than worship
places where the whole counsel was preach in the fashion of a clear
presentation of the gospel of grace. Most people do not understand the
details of salvation.... and its sad to say that most pastors couldnt
explain them either. And now even in the so called regulated church
these are giving equal time to the new emergent philosophies along with
the confession. When you cant agree on the doctrines of grace , even in
the leader ship you will never have unity no matter how many props you
use to attract people. And unity is the life of the church. If people
are divided that means that there is going to be fighting about in those
disagreements. This is in the context of the main things. No matter how
many visible things you bring into the equation, there will still be
the underlying disagreements on teaching. When the clear preaching of
the doctrines of grace are presented, the life of the church is in the
rejoicing of the people. The unity of the Spirit is developed by this
simple infusion of that life in the spread of the gospel. Its so
difficult because it is a struggle to get everyone to have a single
purpose. Watch out for those who try to bring in new ways of doing
things. Its just an old way of saying that there are these other ways
that are equally important as the ways of God. This is liberal to the
core. This is nothing new. There are high points in church history and
low ones. When liberalism invades our seminaries, and churchs then the
people are forced to suffer. But God has promised to be a father to the
fatherless. This includes the cove natal promise to protect His remnant
by ways that are not the usual ways. Thank God that when the church
departs from the old ways we have a God who doesnt leave us to these
ways. We can have personal revival in the worse departure. If Bill has the time he can explain this controversy that Spurgeon was going through.
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5662
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Accountability
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on: January 22, 2009, 02:43:17 PM
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I am all for adults treating each other as
adults. When we became at an age that we were no longer under the
authority of any person then we were free to depend upon our own wants
and desires as to what kind of career we were going into, the people we
wanted to socialize with and where we were going to live. Our freedom
hasnt changed no matter how old we are , the unhappy experiences we have
had on the way , or the kinds of problems that have come as a result of
our journey. We still are as free as when we were innocent and just
starting out.
The only difference now is that the way we think
in terms of the level of maturity with our life experience, is that we
are more fearful or on the other hand more confident in ourselves. Its
really that simple. We cant look at the past as if we had a thousand
regrets. Like , if only this person was there to show me this way, or if
only i had avoided that situation, or if only this had happened instead
of that. Because we must believe that the freedom of choice that we
enjoy was more important than the present circumstances that lead us to
be fearful. Cause that is reality my friend. We choose exactly what is
most important to us. No one causes us to choose. No one can hold our
hand and cause us to do something that we do not want to do. We may want
to depend on them to choose for us, or we may want them to protect us
from our own choices, but they are not living in our skin. We are the
only ones before God that knows what we are to do for ourselves. Period.
The
problem is not that we make the wrong choices, but that we do not have
enough will power to choose something over another that is better even
tho we want that thing for ourselves that would come in the future. Its
not because so and so tells us that its better and we should do it. The
problem is that our desires to do something that is not of value is
stronger than the desire to choose the best.Period.
The scripture
calls this a struggle with our flesh. We have the power of sin that
still resides in us that has a pull. The power of sin is not the person
who we work with, the boss who gets us upset or the close relative that
is causing us all kinds of grief. The church member who is struggling
with sin or any one else. The problem resides in our hearts and the
solution to the problem is in our understanding of our own problem. We
are still as free as a bird. We are not ones to shrink under the power
of something.
So we need to develop desires that are for the
glory of God. Not for the glory of another person, not for the glory of a
goal that we accomplish, not for the glory of a position we may
acquire, but for the glory of God. Period.
No one can change our
desires. No matter how many walls we put up against being in a situation
where we are tempted. We could be in a small room with no tv, no check
book, no excessive amounts of food and still be as evil as if we were
the worse we could be. The problem is not out there it is in here!
Period.
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5664
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: January 21, 2009, 12:33:42 PM
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Religious institutionalism starts in how we
think about God as He is defining the reality of our lives. If we have a
reactionary God, that is a God who responds to our sins with
discipline, or a God who sees into the future but does not know
intimately what we are going to think and do so that He allows us to go
our own way when we are given to falling into a life style of a
temptation that we cannot get past, so that God is wondering when we are
going to find someone who can hold us accountable for our terrible
struggle, then we are going to practice the most horrible hypocrisy that
could ever be devised. And if we get two people to think the same way
about God then we are going to encourage hypocrisy by having a lack of
respect for Gods ways so that we develop a culture where the definition
of goodness is by the standard of the level of the reaction to the
amount of trouble that comes as a result of the problem with the sin
that so easily besets. As you practice this kind of religion, then you
develop a religious society that accepts some sins and condemns other
sins. This is the definition of Pharisee ism.
In this society
there is a high level of secret sins, a very high level of sins of
pride, and an unhealthy hardness by those methods of defining sin
downward for the sake of creating a society where man has a certain
control over his own standard o conduct. This is a most miserable and
unhealthy society. This is the society in which Christ came into this
world.
Lets get personal here as to how Gods standard of conduct
is measured. If it is the outward behavior as we think is predominate
in our understanding of Gods workings in the society of men.... please
.... religion is idol worship ..... oh man people. God is going to judge
the thoughts and the intents of a mans heart. Heres the problem... men
go to scheming against their neighbor. Look now... this is so natural in
the most religious man, that its scary. I will tell you rite now that a
man will scheme without even having a thought about what God thinks and
how God works in the wills of men. A man will practice over and over
again this way of scheming. The way is always a self deception about his
own sins, and a love for finding the sins in others. This is as natural
as eating. Thats why all men eat other men like they eat
bread.....please dont tell me that you do not measure yourself by a
different standard than you measure other men. Look really.... i dont
want to hear such lies. And dont tell me that you do not think that your
work is better than other men. Ok yes you say oh i admit when other men
are better than me. Well dont tell me that you dont become humble when
you are in the presence of some well respected religious man for the
sake of gaining some kind of good graces from him. And then the poor man
you are not as humble too. Give me a break. And you dont think that God
thinks this is foolish? Please.... people God sees all men as idol
makers. God judges the schemes in a mans heart. You cant escape this
kind of searching. Thank God that He sees us through the righteousness
of Christ or we would all be standing in our own goodness. Please.... oh
my.... give me a break ... hypocrites!
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5665
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: January 20, 2009, 07:17:22 PM
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An understanding of doctrine is very important
to having a proper view of oneself. Our goodness is personal only in
the rite thinking about what is true goodness. In this way we are only
as understanding of selflessness as we are able to know the ultimate
good in all things. We know that God does not share His glory with
anyone. Gods self reflection is from His image in Jesus Christ. He is
the prefect replica of the perfect image of the Father. If you have seen
Me then you have seen the Father. If you could have a perfect image of
yourself then you could reduplicate yourself. Obviously our image of
ourselves is in the fog of corruption. Not just in terms of
selflessness, but in a holistic view. In this way I am truly convinced
that it is more important as to our understanding of the nature of God
in relation to the origins of this foreign life in coming to terms with a
general awareness of who we are than it is to have a passion for self
denial. Because if God enjoys His own work, then we who are the works of
His hands find the end of Gods enjoyment of us, in the enjoyment of
Him. How can we glorify God without enjoying Him?
So we are what
each individual thought declares us to be. Gods thought is always what
is in existence. I dont think that God has a thought that does not have
an end in His own goodness as to how He is self reflective. God is
pleased with all of His thoughts because He is pleased with all of His
goodness in their production, their working and the end for which He
created them. Since the fall we have been blinded to who we are, because
the cause of our understanding of the truth is in the origin of the
life of God in our souls. Now we have our own thoughts , which is the
blindness. For whatever is revealed is what is true of us and true of
the world. This is why we are to live as Gods thoughts being our
thoughts. And i dont want to make this a purely intellectual reflection.
Because the nature of our thoughts gives us the spiritual awareness to
enjoy the truth not just to collect the truth. It could be that God is
thinking His revealed thoughts through us by His Spirit. In the way the
proposition gives us the understanding of Gods reveal thoughts, but the
spiritual awareness answers the truth of the proposition. I dont think
we can be aware of who we are outside of this understanding.
Spiritual
selflessness is an expression of the soul being exposed to the highs
and lows of the work of the Spirit. I think just as we find in self
denial a sense of our own unworthiness, at the same time we who enjoy
Gods works as they are good in themselves can experience selflessness in
the height of our adoration and praise. It could be that we have an
experience of our souls being lifted up in our bodies. Or it would be
defined as the height of a spiritual longing for God that is causing us
to forget about the earthly pull. If God is good in all that He does,
then we find our happiness in His goodness by what He does in us and in
the world. We are going to experience that goodness in high spiritual
illuminations and experiences. It is our natural way to think that these
times are a waste of energy. But God is not a force. God is personal.
God is very powerful in His presence. How can we say we seek Him and
find Him without some kind of very real and exalted experience? For we
are to glorify Him by enjoying Him forever. This is the end of
selflessness , to get lost in God.
We could go our whole lives
having the language of God but never having an understanding of who God
is. We could have a worship that is man centered, focused on mans power ,
and done for mans glory. But we were made to enjoy God by His word and
Spirit. We were made to be so full of the power of the presence of God
that we experienced a divine consciousness that was so fully effective
that the power entered into our hearts in that worship and caused us to
be under this spiritual lust for God. Our existence on this earth is for
God. Our experience of the things of this earth is not where we are
going to find our lasting enjoyment. We are spiritual beings made to
find all of our happiness in enjoying God by this divine unction.
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5667
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What are we meditating on today?
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on: January 19, 2009, 09:34:52 PM
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Mx this is a very interesting portion of
Scripture. I hardly agree. I too have thought about this as well. I
have heard sermons on this particular set of scriptures. The striking
thing about this as well as Gods soverieng rite to do as He pleases is
Moses bravery. Here is the only time in scripture were a man is
talking to God as being visibly available. This is a very holy and
fearful place to be. But Moses is pressing God so that He might see Him.
He doesnt just want to be blessed, which is i think in the verses
prior. But He wants to see the glory of God. God promises to bless Moses
by answering His prayer, but Moses is pressing God to do more. Not only
does He ask once but He continues to go with the request again. This is
very brave. The point being that Moses wanted to see the glory
of God. Moses was the only man on earth who saw the back parts of God.
Thats why this passage is so intriguing. We have an example of a man who
will not stop at the request. We have a man here who is seeking God for
the other. Now this is very important, there are times when we feel as
if God is calling us to want more. We cant just accept the blessing
..... we want more.... we want the living God. And you have this
same kind of seeking by the Psalmist. He wants to seek the living God.
He is pressing God to reveal Himself in a special way. He remembers
going to the temple with such rejoicing in his heart that he is pressing
God to be present in a new way. He was seeking God, the living God. We
see that God encourages this extra kind of seeking. Because God could
have cut Moses off and told Him the blessing was enough. But God was
available like that. There is a sense in which Moses coming down from
the glory, there his face shown from the brightness of that experience.
We too can shine spiritually. I mean we are not promised to see Gods
back parts, but we are promise to find God if we seek Him. If we come to
a place where we want more, we want God Himself, then we will find Him.
Because when God shows up then we are made aware of our own frailty.
God is so big and powerful that we are drawn into an understanding that
takes us away from this present tumultuous world. If we are seeking God ,
if we are coming before Him and pressing Him in prayer, if we are
pressing Him to display His glory over all the earth . Oh, that glory is
what we want. We will press Him more and more until we find Him.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: January 17, 2009, 10:58:00 AM
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Let me say something on this subject. I think
with all of the secularism we have there is a sense in which the dumb
ing down of society has brought about a confusion of the sex's. As we
are always learning to hear these communications that are intended to
lead us away from this worlds order and direction we are involved in a
fight not only against the causes as it relates to the causes of the
worlds philosophical principles but we are also in a battle as to how
these realities of meta physical workings as to the underlying causes of
those ways of the worlds determinism effecting the way our faculties
are deformed. There is an area that must be understood in this terribly
twisted world of reality. There is a problem with how we come to
terms with our anger. We can turn our anger inward. God is a God of
anger. He expresses His anger toward the wicked everyday since they are
in a hostile relationship toward Him. God withholds his loving care to
them so that they dig their own pits. These things are related to us and
how we are Gods children suffer in this world. We suffer as a result of
mens willing these things into circumstances of life. God uses the
anger of the world to bring about His goodness toward us. He does not
eliminate the tendencies for hatred to be expressed. But He always uses
men to experience the full effects of their hatred toward Him and He
turns them to be trapped by their own angry schemes. Men who do not
trust in God will find that their ways are always difficult in that they
experience things in this life that are too difficult to overcome. But
Gods people will be saved from this way of alone ness. The difference
between a child of God and a child of Satan is not necessarily a moral
beauty. But it is the the difference in the state of salvation and the
state of death. What we experience we experience in lite of seeing these
things in our relationship with God as God expressing HIs love in His
anger toward those who oppress us. So that in a sense our anger is never
without a final resolution in God. Its not that we ignore our anger and
feel guilty by it, but we turn to God who causes all things to work
together for good in the perfect expression of anger in the working out
of all these trials in this world by His anger. If there is
anyone who should understand anger it is a believer. Since we have been
taught to withhold anger at the wrong time, to find our relief of anger
in expressing in a counseling situation we are always frustrated by how
we long to see these things in a redeeming since. The truth is that Gods
anger is really fearful. If we are to fear God we fear Him out of
respect as His children since we know that we are not the recipients of
His anger. We look from the outside to the inside of Gods wrath. We
stand as protected from His wrath. We stand in a completely different
state that we were in experiencing His wrath in that other state of
bondage to sin. But we still have a very big problem with anger. I would
say that if we have love its because we know how the anger of God is
expressed, not just that He commands us to love. We understand that God
works out His anger in a way as the world is going into perdition. We
love because we know that God does not express His anger toward His
children. We experience love knowing that our Father will protect us by
the expression of His anger toward mankind. Our hope is that His love
will be a care for us as if there is a perfect soul overseeing our
conflicts and that soul is moving to bring us to have victory over the
direction of this world. Most fear is anger turned inward. We neglect
the thinking that there is perdition. We neglect the idea that there is a
day of reckoning. We neglect the idea that God is particular in His
love. All of these doctrines are actually our protection by God
expressing His anger toward sin in protecting us. How can we feel His
love if we cant feel His retribution for the sake of our protection? We
would ignore Gods active hostility in the world through the wills of men
to our own harm. Now we know that we must find all of our
retribution in God. We must lay our anger before Him since He promises
to repay if we do not repay. He doesnt promise us to come to our aid if
we ignore His ability to repay. He promises if we do not repay the anger
then He will in His own time repay. That is the principle of being in
the house of God. That is the principle of anger turned toward the good.
It is not an encouragement to push it down or take the blame and then
God will come to our aid. It is a promise that in God is a perfect
advocacy. Now we have been taught that anger is the cause of all
of our problems in this world. We have been taught universalism. We have
been taught to love all men the same since God loves all men the same.
If we believe that God does not treat as our sins deserve then we know
that we stand as always being dealt with by grace, that is, we are
always in the state of forgiveness and love. But we still face
situations in which anger has an effect on how we fear God. Anger causes
us to have a fear that God is not forgiving , that He is not our
friend. We misrepresent our state of grace by taking the anger that the
world and the pharisee teaches and turning it on our selves in the
imagination that grace is a passive look at the threats of this world.
We become passive and unwilling to feel like we should. When we learn
the philosophies of this world , then we create a god of our
imagination. We are not in a state of consistent equilibrium between
good and evil, but we are in between the forces of evil that threaten to
destroy us and a God who promises to have a fellowship with us in joy
and perfect love. in other words we are seeing one or the other, there
is no rest in this sense. The rest is trusting that God will be perfect
in His expression of love and anger. So that we experience a
relationship in which we can be angry and not sin. Our expression in
this life is that we know how to express anger. We know how we can use
anger to glorify God. We know that we are not more able to deal with
anger as if God were universally loving everyone with the purpose in the
end of expressing HIs anger. We do not have the power to look at God
this way. We will fall into the world, by being afraid of God as if He
were asking us to wait until the end. God has never been a universal God
nor will He ever be a universal God. God is a God who is particular.
Gods particularity is expressed in His protection of His own by His name
and His working out His anger toward the world. Our anger is turned
inward when we try to create a universal god. Anger is expressed to us
in saying that God loves all men the same, and there is no retribution
on this earth. When we believe this we place ourselves under the power
of men who only want to bring us into bondage. Do not neglect the
anger that you have. It is there to remind you that God will not be
silent. Bring your anger to God and express it before HIm. Look at His
righteous working to bring about the downfall of those who have not been
chosen. See that there is nothing you can do to bring a man out of the
state of perdition. Men are subject to the anger of God because God has
made them to be in that state. See that God will vindicate the righteous
not because of the acceptable behavior but because God is God by His
rite to chose some men for hell. Dont let men trap you into anger that
is not real.There is only one saving faith. So that any other kind of faith is dead
faith. Instead of using the word justification let me use the
definition. When a person is declared righteous it is because there was a
divine call. That s what the golden chain in Romans is all about. It
cannot be broken. Basically its who ever has been declared righteous has
been glorified. They are fully made new and completely sanctified at
salvation. But the final salvation is not complete until there is no
more struggle with sin and death. Because salvation is not a
way to bring man into the process. In salvation man is completely
passive. Salvation is a work of God that has been obtained by the work
of Christ alone. If man had any ability to cause his own salvation then
salvation would be grace plus. Its like adding a substance to milk. Its
always milk plus. But there are no additions in salvation. Its a work
that is cause by God, was accomplished by God and will be enabled by God
for the end that God purposed. Thats why the only saving faith is when
Christ is the end of that faith. The words about the cross
like, made, accomplished, in, through, by the means of, for the sake
of...etc. These terms are all really the actual ends for which Christ
came into this world to accomplish His work. If He decided to work in
order to obtain salvation then the work that He accomplished actual was
fully effective to be the reason that salvation was obtained. He didnt
work to obtain a partial salvation. The cause of His saving was in His
choice and plan to obtain it. The means that He accomplished the work
was by the cross. The reward for His work was bringing His own to the
kingdom, He is preparing a place cause the work was already done to give
us a place. If you water down these terms, then you have no reason to
believe that God is the cause of every thing that exist. If God spoke
everything into existence then He did not use any other means to create
except what was in Himself. If God was the only cause of this existence
then there is nothing outside of God that would be worthy enough to
bring Him glory in order for that independent goodness to be equal with
Gods goodness. God does everything for His glory alone, not for any
thing worthy of glory in itself. So God causes, God sustains, and God
will receive all the glory in the end. Salvation is in God alone.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Two Distinct Justifications in Salvation
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on: January 14, 2009, 02:29:12 PM
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It's a life decision to turn around and put Christ on the throne of your life.
Sigh...... Nothing
personal, but where you get that from metanoia is amazing to me. You
just cannot redefine words that have specific meanings like that. And in doing so you have created another gospel. A gospel of works not grace. Based
on the first chapter of Galations, I would stay a million miles away
from that error. No worse error that can be made in interpreting
scripture. Grace and works; oil and water, just don't mix. Will post tommorow on the topic for this thread. Bill
Bill...that
fits your defination....turning around. It is also is what happened to
me...in a real life supernatural intervention of God. What was your
metanoia? How do you apply this on the street with real big time
sinners? Thor Grace, is Jesus dying for you so you
could chose to trust in Him or NOT(the Gospel!). Grace is not an
alternate way God saves you before Jesus came and died...else there
would be no need for Jesus to come, if your salvation was already
determined. Anything other than believeing in Jesus is not even
Biblical...probabily gnostic in belief.
But
man was created and did not need grace. He had the ability to chose to
live forever in the righteousness that God bestow on Him. With that
righteousness came the ability in man to meet the standard of the law.
So that grace was needed in order for man to be restored to his original
righteousness because man can no longer obtain salvation through his
own ability. Man lost that moral ability in the fall. If grace
and works are mixed. ie mans ability and Gods grace being mixed, then
the standard by which man must achieve must be lowered in order for man
to meet the requirements from mans ability side. When you lower the
standard then you create the obligation for narcissistic behavior that
is the cause of gnosticism. In order for the standard to remain as an
eternal standard, salvation must be by grace alone. Then we are not
lowering the standard of the law.
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5677
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Two Distinct Justifications in Salvation
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on: January 14, 2009, 01:36:29 PM
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Beacon,
If
I understand your position, you see God, based on the sacrifice of
Christ, as having forgiven everyone of all sin. This means that everyone
has been reconciled to God through Christ that is alive. Only when they
die in unbelief are they seperated from God.
Yes
Bill, this is what I see in the scriptures. And this forgiveness was
given to all mankind. In other words, the benefits of the Cross were
given retroactively to all those who died prior to the Cross. Although,
for those who died in unbelief, the gift of the forgiveness alone could
not save them--and that is still the same for those who die in unbelief
after the Cross.
So if Christ forgiveness at the cross
did not obtain saving faith to be transacted in time , then how can it
be defined as saving? If He made everyone righteous upon their taking
it, then why did not His righteousness extend to their unbelief?I mean
we both agree that He died for sin. Thats like saying to those
in eternity suffering in hell, that Christ needs to apologize that His
power to save them did not include His willing them to be saved. What a
weak God.
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5678
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: January 13, 2009, 08:58:55 PM
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I agree that we can narrow it down to a
struggle with the flesh and how that relates to our identity in Christ.
But then there is a chance since we are what we think, that we define
ourselves in a machinist way. Now i understand that its better to narrow
everything down to our identity in Christ. I am not sure that in
narrowing this to just experiencing Christ that we do not focus on
Christ but we focus on our being identified in Christ. And we define our
experience as being without the deception of our flesh in the struggle
between the Spirit and the flesh. I mean because we define our identity
in Christ as an understanding of where the flesh is and how the flesh
operates that we in a sense focus on the struggle and not on the object.
If we explain how to focus on the object , then maybe that is a purely
mechanical way of saying that we understand our identity in Christ.
Ok
, we can have other things that determine our view in our understanding
of Christ. I do not believe that our present understanding is
transformed by the process of narrowing down to the object. Without a
present transforming knowledge of the object we are left to the memory
and the willing the object to be something by our struggle with the
flesh. Or if we simply define the understanding of our identity in
Christ as coming to a point were we do not struggle with the flesh or we
lay all of our acting to Him, we still have the mechanics of struggling
toward wanting to understand our identity. I mean we can argue that the
person who uses the means to find a present transforming knowledge of
Christ as trying in the flesh to do something to know Christ, isnt it
more of a mechanical process to focus on not wanting by not wanting ?
I
think the process comes to us after we focus on Christ. In a sense it
is impossible for us to struggle enough to find Christ. He always comes
to us. So then how does He transform our minds? He has spoken His
eternal word. If He says Without me you can do nothing, then its almost
the same thing as saying that without an understanding of Me by my power
you can do nothing. Christ word is the eternal self revelation of how
we are to live in our own souls. So that how we view ourselves is
determined and defined not by narrowing down to understand Him , but by
looking on Him and then seeing our struggle by that.
Now this is
terribly important cause we are more able by Him than we are by our
defining the process of this narrowing down theology. What we do is we
have a tendency to define our lives by our ongoing sin. But its just as
equally tempting to define our identity by our ability to not do
something as it is to do some good things. What ever the paradigm shift
its still our will as the center of our identity. If we think this way
then we are mechanical and we are presuming in many ways on what He is
saying to us. To say it simply we say there is" nothing i want but you
oh Lord," and the Lord is saying "you would nt want Me except for Me."
But you say," Lord i have come to the point in my life where my
experience has convinced me that you are all i want.You are all i need"
The Lord says , I already did everything for you and i am all you need."
So that our mechanical tendencies to focus on our willing is just as
works oriented as working until we drop. I will get to the positive side
of this.
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5682
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: January 11, 2009, 11:58:06 PM
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I guess there are things we cannot describe.
Here on this earth there is a tendency to look at all ideas as a
succession of those views we have at that particular time in the history
of attention to details that we think about from our physical senses.
But with God there are these things that we experience that we cannot
describe. How do we dwell in the wonder of something we know is much
greater than we could imagine? What the feelings of this kind of
stillness that comes over us here we sit in this pleasure that has an
endless longing so that we are made to rejoice as if there was someone
communicating to us that is much greater in His presence than we can put
into words. So we are left to sit in a silent stream of feeling the
wonder of this glory. Sometimes we must sit in silence and enjoy the
steady stream of glory and pleasure. And then we know that there is
nothing that we can do to explain these soft and pleasant pondering s.
Its as if we were so enraptured in love that we would look out into the
spacious sky and ponder this fellowship with Him. Oh then how we get
lost in His present quiet stream of pleasure. If we were to think about
what we are to do, then we would not be able to enjoy what He is beyond
our understanding. There is something about Gods speaking in this
stillness that causes us to fall under the spell of His divine resource
of pleasure so that we cannot find a word to express how He has caused
this sense of undefinable conscious existence as if we were outside of
time. The wonder of God is beyond a definition in how we are made to
find our pleasure.
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