Man Jeff that was a good post. Got me thinking
so i just want to add to this whole discussion. I think as the days get
evil and it becomes more like Sodom and Gomorrah then we need to use
wisdom as the situations demand. There is a principle of protection that
is always promised in this general maze of accusations going back and
forth. God is going to protect His own according to His name and some of
us do not have enough faith to be valiant over being self involved in
selling the gospel not just in terms of the free market environment but
in avoiding some of those doctrines that are offensive to our own
opinion of our works and offensive to the people who hold to this
democratic moral ism. The truth is that anyone who is not
represented by Christ, that is being under His authority over every
other authority is going to make human effort equal with the authority
of Christ in practice. We are imperfect examples. One of the overriding
principles in all of this is that we are subject to big sins, that
cause scandal and this is the will of God in the working out of His plan
in this world. Look at the lives of the old testament, and then look
what God says about them in the hall of faith. I rest my case. This
witness involves Gods direct intervention in defending His own even tho
His own are not always defensible. David is a prime example. Did God not
subdue all of His enemies after His adultery? You bet you that in the
end David was vindicated. And in some was this man who was the scorn of
the drunkards felt a kind of sorrow for the people of this world cause
He did not think any differently about Gods goodness after that great
sin. It was a cause for others to fall on their own swords. We
are involved in a spiritual battle. Satan doesnt involve himself
personally in every ones lives but he uses the wills of men to
accomplish his scheming. Satan controls the progression of the wills of
men who walk according to the Prince and power of the air. What ever
accusations whether true or false come from that motif. We are involved
in a battle between the forces of evil and the forces of good, and we
are in some ways experiencing this battle as we find in the condition of
men.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Cleaving to God
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on: January 05, 2009, 02:04:46 PM
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Ok , i am going to lose my reputation here for
the sake of bringing a point across. I like the movie Bob, Ted, Carol
and Alice cause it shows the disconnect between our feelings with
personal liberties with letting go. Well its the same thing as following
hard after a set of principles for the sake of rejecting the old forms
and standards. I think this problem has been perpetuated. I mean the
sell is always from the stand point of letting go of your wanting to do
good. And then there is a promise of a transformation from the old pain
so that you follow the new way, and you make friends with new people who
are following hard at this way. Even to the point where you give up
your reasoning abilities and in the end do not feel and think
consistently. But there is the promise of getting free by entering into
the new transforming process. But then the process is a set of rules and
the promise is really to follow the rules in order to go through the
process of forgetting yourself or letting go of your past. I mean if you
were promised a way to transform by forgetting yourself wouldnt you ask
why the program is so rigid and there are so many steps? Well, so, ... i
guess i am off the reservation here. But we have come a long way in how
we deal with our understanding of ourselves. I mean the bible offers us
nothing to bring accept our sin. And we are made aware that Christ is
all we need to live this life. There is no difference between what is
done an said outside the doors as whats done and said inside the doors.
What we are promised is just what we know about consistency in a
covenant manner. One of the problems we have is that we do not think
that Gods covenant will lead us to be true to our understanding of how
we are to deal with ourselves in light of our inhibitions and pain. We
really dont believe that the bible is a book about the thoughts and the
intents of our hearts.
I like that movie because it shows the
utter hypocrisy of accepting something that you must reject your own
feelings of anger and subvert you understanding of rite and wrong in the
process of personal rational liberty in order to go along with the new
crowd. We can face these problems as they come in light of what Christ
has already done. His revelation to us will save us from finding our
relief in the peer pressure, not only from the degenerate, but from
those who offer something equal to the bible.
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5717
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Dual nature of sin perception
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on: January 05, 2009, 01:32:08 PM
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I think these nerds from Duke and Yale who are Biblical scholars know more about this crap than any of us amateurs.
Just
cause you don't like something, doesn't mean it is not true. The
catholic church insisted that the earth was the center of the universe!!
But Galileo said it wasn't and he was called a heretic and thrown in
prison. Galileo was correct and the Church was dead wrong!!
-------
Crowwoman,
the Church will tell you anything. They believe the ends justify the
means and will tell you lies just to get you to do what they want. There
are few things more corrupt than the Church.
Gman... We
all struggle with sinful desires of various types and flavors, nothing
new. Our "conscience" if you will is really the "sin Geiger Counter". As
you approach, it lets you know something isn't quite right with what
you are considering. Your struggle tells me that you know that
what you wish was right, is wrong. If you didn't think so, you wouldn't
be here debating it with people you have never met. Put another way, you
know it is wrong, dangerous, unhealthy, whatever, but you are looking
for something, anything, or someone to tell you it's ok, To justify what
you want to do. The devil is very good at making things look
attractive, even when God says they aren't right. Ask Eve. Eric
Eric,
i agree that Gman is living in a fog. Cause he hasnt found a lasting
relationship. As i recall hes been rejected a number of times and maybe i
mean i can only speak from this distance but maybe theres more to the
gs struggle than putting some kind of behavioral modification on him. I
mean i hear people tell other people to not go to the bible as a means
of becoming normal as a sanctification process. Whats the difference
between them, i mean like G says about all the educated morons and an
adulterer. They both encourage behavior modification but in the end it
leads to not being able to endure in a relationship or being so self
righteous that you might as well compare that to the problem with the
Gal. church. Go ahead and do the whole thing. I mean to me its the same
thing as a surrogate adulterer. But maybe g has some problems that we do
not understand. Cause at least g has been honest about why he loves his
sin. I mean we all look for a way to go around the law. If we sinned
but we do not like to sin then we really would not sin. G, needs to be
encouraged to keep pressing on. G, even tho we struggle yet theres
something much better on the other side if we dont give up. Ok, accuse
me of cheap grace. Wow, i have come a long way.
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5718
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Two Distinct Justifications in Salvation
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on: January 05, 2009, 01:00:55 PM
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I
have never seen one a person receive new life through the act of
repentance. Your own repentance will bring you nothing. Only the grace
of Christ and the gift of faith bring about a translation from one state
of condemnation to a state of glorification. I dont care how sorrowful
you are, it is impossible for you to gain Gods favor by your level of
sorrow. As long as salvation if focused on your repentance you will
climb the steps of determinism.
Tom (MBG) makes a good point.
In the Greek there are several words translated repent/repentance in
English. Some do carry the sense of sorrow. However, in those verses
dealing with salvation, the word is metanoia or a derivative of the
same. Metanoia literally is a change of mind (Meta=change, noia = mind)
not sorrow for sin. While there is a godly sorrow that worketh
repentance, this sorrow does not save. We are saved by grace through
faith, which includes the change of mind described by metanoia. Beacon, I'm
still not following you, to be honest. Unless you are espousing some
form of Universalism, in which all will be ultimately saved. Saying that
Christ's sacrifice has satisfied God's just demands for punishment of
sin (death) in a legal sense (which is what I affirm) is not the same
thing as saying that God has declared all righteous in His sight. As you
quoted Romans 3, this righteousness of God comes by faith, and is only
imputed to the believer once they have trusted Christ. Maybe our
difficulty is in our definition of terms. Justification in my
understanding is more than just being found not guilty, it is having the
very righteousness of Christ imputed to my account, as it were, in
heaven. So when God sees me, he sees me clothed in the very
righteousness of Christ, as perfect. The understanding of that one truth
will even make a Baptist shout  . A corny illustration that I use in teaching the dual truths of redemption and justification. Suppose this morning I received a call from my banker, and he said the following: "Bill,
I know this is very unusual, but there is a friend of yours here at the
bank, and he has a very unique proposal for you. It has two parts.
First, he wants to pay off all your debts. The loan on your truck, the restaurant, the line of credit, everything. You will be totally debt free. Second, he wants to open an account in your name
with 100,000,000 dollars in it, which you can access at your
convenience. All you have to do is come down and approve the paperwork, accepting the transaction that your friend has made on your behalf."Bill
Good
post Bill, and isnt it great that we could never change our position by
our sinful spending? We are declared righteous for all eternity apart
from our own righteousness. In a sense the account never changes.
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5721
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Two Distinct Justifications in Salvation
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on: January 05, 2009, 11:07:03 AM
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The
idea that God does not require repentance and a true decision to trust
in Christ violates everything God has done and said in both old and New
Testaments. Trusting (active belief) in Christ is a decision of the will
just like not caring is a decision of the will.
Thinking Christ
gives a blanket ticket to heaven without any remorse and a contrite
heart is just another way of avoiding doing those very necessary
things.
What in the world is God going to do with unrepentant
people in His kingdom? People that do not care that they sinned or that
it was even wrong are not very nice people to be around (thieves,
killers, mother rapers and father rapers, etc.). That would be Hell. In
Hell people never repented and they don't care that they sinned, they
just care that they got punished for it.
Have you every studied
‘God's’ Temple and the sacrifice system and what the Prophets said about
those who never really repented? With out true repentance God wouldn't
recognize their offering for sin or the National offering during Yom
Kippur.
There is no forgiveness without faith and repentance.
Christ's sacrifice is there for everyone to 'claim' (so He doesn’t have
to died over and over again for each person) but it must be individually
claimed.. Unless this is done by each person they will not have their
sins forgiven and God will not come to live inside them because they are
still willfully sinful and an unclean vessel.
If what you said
was true then when the Jews asked Peter what they should 'do' to be
saved, Peter would have said...'do nothing'. As a matter of fact there
would have been no reason to even continue preaching because salvation
would have been automatic and would not have require any promotion by
anyone at any time in history from that point on. Believing in Krishna
or Buddha would have still gotten you in Heaven because Jesus’ sacrifice
was a 'corporate salvation for humanity. That's universalism and does
nothing about taking sin out of your life.
Is this what you
really believe? Because it really does make any sense. It makes the
whole human event and suffering useless and meaningless.
Thor
postscriptum:
Are any works necessary for salvation and is choosing to accept Jesus a work?
Only one works is necessary according to Jesus:
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Belief in Jesus’ blood is the only sanctified work we have to do, and do it we must in order to be saved.
Corporate salvation was never a Biblical option given us by God.
For
example: Some Jews thought that by just being related to Abraham they
were saved [John 8:39]. The Galatians were led to believe that they
could be saved only after they were circumcise as proselytes. Trusting
in Abraham didn’t save them and Trusting in the proselyte process didn’t
save them...only personally trusting in the blood that Jesus shed on
the cross for them, saved them.
I have never seen one a
person receive new life through the act of repentance. Your own
repentance will bring you nothing. Only the grace of Christ and the gift
of faith bring about a translation from one state of condemnation to a
state of glorification. I dont care how sorrowful you are, it is
impossible for you to gain Gods favor by your level of sorrow. As long
as salvation is focused on your repentance you will climb the steps of
determinism.
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5723
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Two Distinct Justifications in Salvation
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on: January 05, 2009, 09:43:02 AM
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Before Christ went to the cross He prayed for
the elect who He purposed to give this gift of salvation to as the only
reason for Him to pray in this way. If He had any other purpose for
going to the cross He would have expanded His petitions to include the
others. If there is no distinction between the world of mankind and the
elect then why would it be wrong for the elect to love the world system?
After all it takes the wills of men to scheme in order for the system
of the worlds evils to be perpetuated. You have made a holy God, a god
of sinful purposes.
Jn. 17:6
"I have revealed you to
those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them
to me and they have obeyed your word.
17:9
I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
17:12
While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that
name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to
destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. The world has Satan as their Father, not God.
17:16
They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. =We have a new identity, completely different from the world.
The word "all" as used in the NT.
Matt 3: 5 People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. 6 Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.
Did the every person in Judea get baptized by John?
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5725
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Dual nature of sin perception
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on: January 04, 2009, 01:11:13 PM
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Just
so you know I aint the only one who has been betrayed and damaged by
the church... My brother in law's stepfather is a pastor. When he was a
kid, he was beaten, choked, and actually thrown through a wall by his
stepfather. This guy was a pastor and is still a pastor to this day! My
brother in law actually ran away from home at the age of 15 or so and
actually lived on the streets till he was old enough to work and get a
place to live.
My mom is one of the biggest pushers of people to
go to church, but even she says that she doesnt blame him for not going
after going though that abuse.
And hey, what about the catholic
priests who sexually molest kids? Same theme of the same song that the
devil sings in every single church across the world.
I
am so sorry to hear that (((((((G MAN))))) . Church can be a very evil
place when the brand of grace is twisted. I will pray that you find a
church where they are sensitive to the people who go through these
kinds of freaky experiences. Some times the church has people like
Freddy. I ve seen a few horror movies in my life time. Saw comes to mind
for all those who like resistant theology.
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5726
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Dual nature of sin perception
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on: January 04, 2009, 09:01:15 AM
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G,
what you have here is none other than the Gospel of Ethical Relativism
which states that morality is something entirely man-made and completely
relative. In other words, if I think it is a sin for a man to marry
another man (or a woman marry a woman) then that is simply "my" morality
and it is applicable to absolutely no one other then myself (and
whoever else adheres to it). If a man wants to marry his dog, his
mother, sister or brother, then he is not to be constrained by "my"
morality as he lives in an entirely different moral universe then my
own.
The problem with this point of view is, once you start, it
is impossible to know when and where to stop. How, if every moral
decision is "relative" to what a person thinks is right, can you apply
such concepts as "ought," "should," "right," or "wrong." The answer is,
you can't. Once you begin with the notion that all morality is man-made
and relative, then that is something you ultimately (and logically)
end-up with, even when we are talking about such individuals as Hitler,
Stalin, Pol Pot, Bundy or Dahmer.
....
Actually,
relativity is limited to community standards. Communities create laws
that act as boundaries and within those boundaries, and person is free
to make whatever choices they want to make their life more fun and
happy. Happiness is key...
My only
concern about happiness is that I cannot find it here. Sex all day long
with whom ever I want sucks. This place sucks. If your not married
brother then you are in His bedroom. He is your lover. Look as
impossible as this sounds, and Lord knows I cannot be the example, if it
consumes you then take it to Him. You wanna have sex with someone, have
sex with Him. But, all that crap has to come into the light if you
wanna be with Him. Drag its dead ass in there. By the life that
Christ led and His death, I would say that fun and happiness rates about
a "nil" on God's scale. I truly doubt He gives a s__t whether or not
your happy. In fact, its about His pleasure, not yours. Not saying I'm
accomplishing this, but stop...turn around (repent)...and think about
His happiness and fun. Just a thought Mainly though I just
did not like them picking on you. I SAW NO GRACE IN IT for all those
who accuse, yes accuse, me of the same. 
I dont know but the drive is more powerful than anything in this world.
There is a balance here. Ive yet been able to pray my way out of this
struggle. I feel for Carolina. I am not directing this to you JW. But
please dont give me a mantra about how communication and understanding
lessens the urge. Yes, i can see how it works in todays society.
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5727
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Is the believer's heart still "desperately wicked?"
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on: January 04, 2009, 08:18:53 AM
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Jim said
1. If, as is sometimes
suggested, that the old heart (spirit/will) is indeed thoroughly gone
and not simply sidelined, radically diminished and decentralized (as I
suggest) by our restoration in Christ, what is the source of sin for the
believer now? If we say it is "indwelling sin," meaning that it comes
strictly from the outside of us, then does the devil now cause every
sin in the believer because there's nothing inside the believer that
would lead him into sin? Or, is it the corruption of our minds that
causes sin? And. . .
The will has been radically changed not
only because it is a devoted to Christ, but it has replaced the old
will. But at the same time the will is a personal faculty in its
identity since the cause of sin is from a corruption in the function of
that particular faculty. If we say the will is new so that it no longer
has any relation to the soul then how can we be personally responsible
for the condition of our souls? We sin because our souls are corrupted
by sin. The cause of our doing sin is from a personal experience that we
have a knowledge of sin from the garden and that knowledge is mixed
with corruption. To know about sin is not corrupting , but to know about
sin in personal experience is to be under the power of sin in some way.
The only way we can experience being under the power of sin is to have a
soul that is tainted by sin so that every part is corrupted. After all
when we sin then our faculties work in unison to do the act. It would be
foolish to argue which faculty is less responsible. If i choose for
myself according to the condition of my soul then i am responsible.
"When i want to do good evil is rite there with me."
2. Do
we place too much emphasis on the corruption of the mind -especially in
the believer? (How do we understand "For you have been given the mind
of Christ. "?) Have our minds already been redeemed to some degree?
What does that mean, then?
We have the mind of Christ because
we want to please Him. In our former way of thinking we acted out of
self interest only. But now we have a whole new way of thinking. Before
conversion we lived in deception always giving into the flesh without
experiencing any kind of spiritual struggle. When our minds were made
alive and we began to experience an obligation to live according to the
Spirit. We no longer saw the law as an enemy because it no longer had
the sting of death or it was not going to bring condemnation as to our
understanding of its working in us. Our relationship to the law changed
dramatically. But we still had the former ways of how we understand our
performance according to our former way of experiencing reward and
punishment. As a new believer we began to look to Jesus as the answer
to the power of the law, but we still did not have the practice of our
new identity in Christ as a principle of assurance because of our former
attraction to law keeping. We always dwell on Him knowing that if He
were to mark our sins we could not stand , that is we would cease to be
under the power of grace and the Spirit. I know there are some who say
that we can look at this through inward to outward or outward to inward.
But since we are what we think... i mean ... thinking in the biblical
since not as an intellectual principle...oh please keep me from going
off on a tangent here... about self image.. ok.... oh man .... i am lit
rite now. I better stop cause the Psalms are coming up from my gut.
.....Ok....
ive got to say one more thing here. Now if we had the ability to
experience these powers by our ability to choose how we were going to
live in the reality in our minds view, that is those things that we
experience by the spiritual senses then we would all be able to live
under a principle of performing by a very narrow set of rules. We would
not need the indicative and the imperative. There is not one person who
is the same, we all have tendencies to do things according to the causes
that we cannot understand. Some of us are very weak in our natural
disposition, and we function in a spiritually united understanding of
how we are to view who we are in becoming more like the image of Christ.
Our tendency is to find a way to live as if we were living under the
dominant influence of our physical faculties. I do not think the
apostles answer to the matter being evil and the spirit good, was to
encourage people to depend on the discipline of the body as the answer.
No, He encouraged a spiritual journey, that is gaining the ability
through the exercise of the spiritual senses to discern what is good.
That is we cannot understand who we are until we know who God is. But in
understanding who God is we do not forget ourselves as if we did not
exist. Ok , the image of God is Jesus Christ. He is the divine replica
of the Father. They are one in substance. The immunation of the
Trinitarian reality is that all things were created by God for the
purpose of bringing Himself glory. Whatever transpires in this world is
ultimately for the glory and pleasure of God. So that the immunition of
the praise worthy ness of the divine order is experienced in the working
out of His glory in His creation. So that we experience this pleasure
in some fashion since the cause of this working is in the means and the
ends. For in Him we live and move and have our being. He always existed
and we draw our existence from Him.
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5728
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Dual nature of sin perception
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on: January 03, 2009, 11:29:59 AM
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If you dont think you can handle a conversation about sex then dont read this.
Very
interesting post G man. I think its a little twisted. But the g man
always likes to dwell in the twisted as his particular hard to deal with
sins. What ever God declares as sin has a required punishment both
temporal and eternal so that we know the value of the consequences of
doing the act. Sex outside of marriage is dangerous.
Now that
said God is a God of grace. Some people come from very sexually
energized circumstances. Sex is a sin that is like other sins, i am not
sure sex against the body is not like over eating or other sins against
the body. But sex sin can create a course of wanting more sex by the
body being trained to having more sex. I think there is an addiction but
measuring it is different for every body. Its not one size fits all.
Its
not just an addiction but it can be through self righteousness as well.
I mean look at the rate of premarital with making covenants to
withhold. It doesnt stop people from engaging in sex. Our society has
waxed cold, so that we no longer feel guilty for the amount of sexually
visible things we are confronted with on bill boards , in the work place
and on tv and movies. So we have a problem with treating one another as
objects instead of valuing the other things in people. Thats because we
have lost the art of appreciating beauty without lusting, and we dont
value people for their gifts. We have gone the other extreme and tried
to limit the freedom of expressing to one another each others value in
the rite way. This is because we live in a society where we are afraid
of finding the innocence of the past because we have so many things we
are drawn to that are not normal tendencies. In some ways when we wax
cold, we replace being warm with fear of falling into a pattern of bad
behavior. We are always given to extremes. When we see that the rules do
not stop the bad behavior then sometimes we depart from religion.
That said there is something else as i observe in the present day sex
environment. I dont think there is a quick answer to those who engage in
premarital sex. I know the counselors point to the statistics as
evidence that there is some kind of mystical relationship between
premarital sex and divorce. There s always a danger in reading stats. I
mean stats can lie. But the point is that if you are sinning then stop.
But the other main thing is that with any sin there is going to be a
struggle to overcome that sin. So the way we overcome the tendencies to a
particular sin is either getting married so that its not premarital.
The only way is through enjoying forgiveness when we fall. So that we
are not focused on ourselves in the sin, but we turn our focus on Gods
grace when we sin. I do not think we work up to a level of the standard
of conduct, but i think we work down into humility in order to forget
ourselves as a general tendency in growing to love. The way to over
come a sin so that it becomes something that does not define the reality
of our dwelling together in unity is through the means of grace. I mean
there is a legal spirit that will just be encouraging us to trade one
sin for another. But the means of grace are designed to not throw us
into some kind of mystical battle with the demon of the human standard
of conduct. I mean there is no demon sitting on your shoulder as a
result of tripping in this sin, but when we struggle with sin we learn
to forgive and be forgiven. We mortify the deeds of the flesh by the
Spirit and the word. We learn to live with love and appreciation and not
under the dictates of human philosophy. Forgiveness experienced in the
means of grace will lead one to rejoice in the other person.
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5730
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Two Distinct Justifications in Salvation
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on: January 03, 2009, 10:12:33 AM
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Justification is simply a declaration that you
are not guilty when you stand before God. Its a declaration that
includes escaping the punishment of sins as well. So that when you go
before the judgment seat and your sins are brought up, then according to
the law, that is Gods eternal standard of law keeping you are condemned
and will pay for your own sins that are an eternal affront to God ....
you will spend eternity in hell and suffering. You will be legally
accountable for your all your sins, but you will be condemned by Gods
declaration for the simple sin of unbelief. Thats why God has a
soveriegn rite to doll out the punishment as He sees fit just as He has
the rite to withhold temporal punishment according to His sovereign
will.... ie the parable of the workers who received their wages.
The
only way to escape the punishment that the law requires is being found
with the imputed righteousness of Christ as an accounting term and
having your sin imputed to Christ on the cross. If we all were to stand
before a holy God who has an absolute standard of law keeping , then we
would all receive the punishment the the law requires. But God has made
a legal declaration in this holy high court that we have been freed
from the law as a judge who is required to follow the law for each
individual. We have been freed according to the eternal call of God who
chose us before the foundation of the world and we received salvation
and the declaration of innocence at salvation for all eternity. When
Christ went to the cross He obtained salvation for those who were chosen
from eternity past. The only reason we will stand before God as
innocent is because the Father sent the Son into the world to save the
lost for His own glory. We only receive what we do not deserve. The
glory according to Christ obedience is imputed to our account and that
righteousness is all we have to escape judgment.
I do not
understand that if the unsaved are going to be declared guilty and
punished for their sins in hell... How can they be declared righteous?
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