Thank God that He has given us the example of
the perfect Man, who acted according to the reality of what He thought
and felt. And this is why He went to the cross, because He wanted to
please His Father because what He did on the cross was the display of
the Man who acting according to His holy nature and not according to
what other men thought or said. So that doing His Fathers will was the
most free expression of Love that could ever be seen among sinners. This
is why we are free when we have this nature. This is why the worse
reason for doing anything is because someone else told you do do it.
Because you are always going to end up acting according to a weak
principle of philosophy rather than from a freedom that Christ displayed
on that cross. And because we live in a day were we are taught to just
listen to someones counsel and do what a person says we are being
subjected to the worse bondage. Please, i know these moments and i am
sure you have had them too. Someone says to you, why did you go that
direction and not the other one, and then we say , because someone told
me to do it. Oh now.... just stop it , please .... i mean what i say ,
stop it! Ok now , uh, get off my back world, get off my back you
Pharisee! Look, I get the message, but i want to let you in on a little
secret, I do not believe you know what you are talking about. And even
if i did everything wrong, i mean i messed up my whole life, then i
would rather have the freedom to choose according to what i really
desire that to choose to please you. Now do you get it? And on what
authority do i say it? On the Lord of the universes authority! Oh, why
do we have such weak minded people? Would you follow Jim Jones to the
temple of doom? Go ahead and create you own little world with all of
your philosophical bantering in your little community of your teachers.
Go ahead and move to an island. I will not accept your idol. You worship
at the foot of men, so that you need to ask men what to do in order for
you to feel healthy enough to move forward. God is not impressed. You
will end up with living your life by the principle of bondage! Thank God
that He delivered us from ourselves and we can choose freely! I really thought and felt that one myself. Can i get a dissenting amen?
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5884
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: November 17, 2008, 10:28:26 AM
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We all struggle with pride. If we are a friend
that is counseling all of us find ourselves saying the same things that
Jobs friends were saying. The point of God bringing about suffering in
one individual should make every individual feel and believe that they
are suffering as well. We are to mourn with those who mourn. That is the
standard. This is why there is always something that is going on that
is not always determined to just effect the sufferer. So i know we all
feel as if one persons pride is uglier than another. But the reality is
that we are all in the same boat so to speak whether we appear to be so
or not. We are just a responsible to see to it that those who are
suffering are upheld , or we are required to uphold them so that we
might share in their suffering as they are to endure that suffering. God
is working in community in order for us to be drawn together through
suffering. And we may be suffering for sin, or because there is some
other thing that God is doing . But the end of all suffering is to
glorify God and to be an encouragement to those who are suffering. Now,
this is the way of the community of sinners. This is the way of men who
are trusting in themselves to find that relief in bringing the one who
is down to the point where he is able to praise God in the assembly. We
have failed in this because we are not condemning ourselves for the
glory of God. So that God disciplines the sufferer and the ones who are
the counselor. Our number one responsibility to one another is to appear
before God on behalf of other members as if we were not going to be
treacherous. And this is the way of the Shepperd who creates a safe
environment for people who are all have an interest in a righteousness
that is not their own.
Ok, our first question is that we have
created this safe place. Now the reason is that we have a God who has
determined to put us with other Christians for the sake of doing for us
more than we could ask or think. The general conversation in a community
of grace in which we are made to think in the motives and desires is a
spiritual easiness so that we find relief in that unity as sinners. This
is the place of refuge, that is God being our refuge brings about a
practical protection. It is mostly that we suffer all alone when our
understanding of the paradigm of the refuge God offers has the element
of treachery. Every saint who dwells in the land of the righteous is the
glorious ones. That is we are all to have a divine unction that causes
us to have a mind to unity even tho we are not present with one another.
This entails that we understand that the way we look at this unity is
through the eyes of long suffering. Most of the time the ones who are
quieted are the ones who are going to grow much faster than the ones who
seem to have all of the wisdom. And we fail to live according to the
pattern laid out in scripture, that is we fail to give God the glory
that He deserves so that we live as if it all depended on us for the
success of the community. But we are led down the road to suffering ,
death, pain, in order that we might be drawn together so that we might
worship God as if we were the ones who were silenced and given grace in
order to be able to be encouraged enough to find our joy in the
community of Gods people. We are made to be spiritual cheerleaders for
one another.
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5886
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: November 16, 2008, 12:19:02 PM
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I think the tail to follow is trying to
relieve the pain through getting a clear conscience. Now i am not
against having a sense of peace, that is being free from bondage to sin
in an experiential way. I think we all need to have that kind of
assurance. I think this is the normal struggle we have as believers when
we are trying to understand what the doctrine of forgiveness is about.
And no matter how we feel at a particular time in our lives whether we
are having some real bad struggles with anxiety, or we are feeling smug
with our healthy mental state, yet the truth is that forgiveness and the
peace we have is an ongoing reality. We are to have an ongoing
assurance that we are forgiven. The scripture says that this is where
all of our problems with assurance are found. One of the books that have
changed my view of my former practice of the difference between my
trying to gain forgiveness by my confession as opposed to my waiting for
forgiveness by Him speaking peace to me is John Owens Sin and
Temptation.And as well to memorize the Psalms , i am a bit less
mechanical, but this book is a must for someone who has really deep
sorrows. We must acknowledge that we can find ourselves in a predicament
where we are led to face ourselves by having to face this restlessness
because of our past sins. But the answers to this predicament have their
nexus as to getting out of this kind of discipline that is brought on
by our former sins is to find all of our assurance in Christ. That is
only found when we find that He is sufficient to forgive all of our past
sins, and we are made aware that He has done this to us by experiencing
a lack of anxiety because of what we did.
This is understanding
forgiveness in a biblical fashion of dwelling in assurance the brings
peace and comfort to our troubled souls. One of the problems we have is
that we get side tracked into all of these side issues. We focus on the
pain, and in feeling helpless and going through some terrible distress
we do not always seek this kind of forgiveness. Owen says that there are
more people who think they understand forgiveness in this world by when
they come to a cross roads then they find that it was very shallow and
deceptive in their thinking. I think in todays culture we are led to
believe that forgiveness is something that God offers without any kind
of pain staking search as to what the scripture means by assurance of
this kind. When i talk about going through a conversion, i am thinking
in terms of the process of spiritual transformation that involves this
who paradigm of finding all of our comfort over our struggle with sin
and forgiveness in Christ speaking His peace to us, or waiting on Him to
give us an assurance that we are forgiven. This is what helps us get
through that discipline over our past sins that comes to us for our
rebellion.
Sometimes we must go through the wood shed in order to
be convinced that the discipline we are going through was necessary for
us to depart from our sins. And this is an extremely painful process.
But how are we going to grow in Him and find that whatever comes out of
our mouths, or the things we write determine whether we have been
experiencing His peace that He speaks to us about our sin, if we are
always talking about frames and people and list and programs. At some
point we must acknowledge that we did not understand forgiveness , we
did not understand what it meant to seek forgiveness, we did not
understand what it meant to hope in his word until He would come and
speak peace to our hearts. There was no real understanding of His
assurance in this way so we did an incomplete searching and we find
ourselves loving the same sins, falling in the same manner, and being
under the same d illusions about ourselves. Because anyone who has had
dealings with God will find in the end that His forgiveness had a power
to effect a conversion in His own soul to depart from His sins and that
He would conclude that God alone went the road for our redemption and He
alone earned that forgiveness so that we are made to praise Him alone
for bring forgiveness to us in our waiting on Him.
Psalms 130 [Commentary]
1. A Song of Ascents. Out of the depths I have cried to You, O LORD.
2. Lord, hear my voice!
Let Your ears be attentive
To the voice of my supplications.
3. If You, LORD, should mark iniquities,
O Lord, who could stand?
4. But there is forgiveness with You,
That You may be feared.
5. I wait for the LORD, my soul does wait,
And in His word do I hope.
6. My soul waits for the Lord
More than the watchmen for the morning;
Indeed, more than the watchmen for the morning.
7. O Israel, hope in the LORD;
For with the LORD there is lovingkindness,
And with Him is abundant redemption.
8. And He will redeem Israel
From
all his iniquities.(The thing that jumps out at you is the question
Does God have iniquities? NOT. I like that their iniquities were his
personal concern, that being," his" being Israel could not redeem this
in taking that redemption on themselves.) This alone should stab the
semi plagenist in the heart of his own righteousness.
I was a
bit harsh, i do believe that there is these medical reliefs as well. And
i do think that we need to be protected by having people around us who
share in this view of forgiveness. But one of the things that Owen talks
about in going through the wood shed of Gods discipline is to focus on
who God is. There s no doubt as i have been saying that i have gone
through this discipline. I do not want to be disciplined in His anger,
or disciplined in a fashion of being discouraged so that i fall into a
state of depression. I do not wish any kind of pain on any of my fellow
believers. The world is full of people with this ongoing paradigm But
there is a day of trouble coming for all of us. For if we are not
disciplined that we are not His children. And His discipline involves
the experiencing some level of terror. But again, the state of a man
under the terror of the Lord involves an ongoing assurance of Gods
forgiveness and grace. And the only people who would give us a false
impression of having going through this spiritual experience as if we
had physical leprosy are people who have never really understand grace,
that is they are not standing in Christ righteousness. They are deceived
about their own goodness. They do not understand the nature of Gods
forgiveness. This is why it makes it doubly hard in this society to go
through discipline being kicked around by religion. This is the cause of
all false religion in this world. That is to find mortification of sin
outside the authority and use of scripture. To try to find a level of
comfort in something that offers grace plus something else. Or the use
of means as not under the authority of scripture.
And we find the
normal process in the evil days is that we will be confronted by Satan
on all fronts. You know the old adage when trouble comes it comes in
bunches. Well this is one of the frames of mind in which we must deal
with when we are being disciplined by God for our past sins and that is
that we must confront these other troubles too.Some of us are suffering
so much because we have been led down a road where we have had
friendships with people who are not going to be there when trouble
comes. First because we are easily blinded by our pride, and we develop
friendships with people who do not understand how to get through the
troubles of this life, we find ourselves in the shoes of Job, adding one
deli ma onto another. I would only say that what i have experience is
that the road to suffering and pain is lonely. I think the psalmist
would concur with my sentiments. But God is not far away that we should
be so distressed that we cannot find our way. And He does come to the
aid of those who are being severely disciplined.
If we focus on Gods
sovereignty, that is there is nothing that we face that He has not
determined for our good. Even tho the world, flesh and devil scream in
our ears, that is the voices we hear to drag us down to depression, we
still can find our relief in waiting for Him through His word like a
watchmen waits for the morning. We are made to be under so much of the
paradigm of learning in the process of implanting the word, in a
paradigm of distress as if a watchman had the frustration of
sleeplessness and confronting potential trouble in the nite that he
would hate that experience of that job. Let alone being able to sleep
when the sun comes up, yet having a general anxiety of boredom as well.
Boredom is defined in scripture as a lack of ongoing peace that replaces
the normal anxious spirit we grow to endure. We were never made to
replace His peace with a the general kind of a thousand thoughts rolling
around in our heads as the undercurrent of our anxious rest. But we are
made to fall asleep as having experienced a rolling all of our troubles
onto Him, pleading the promises, and having a passion for His nearness
as if our bellies were full after a feast. That is the spiritual
opposite of being bored by being in this world. But then we wait like a
watchmen under these different kinds of weights from our groaning.
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5887
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: November 15, 2008, 02:56:56 PM
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I do not want you to think that i am
discarding everything you are saying. But my understanding of these
things is based upon a knowledge of God and myself. So any kind of self
reflection is from self understanding that is from knowledge. For me to
know Christ then i can only know Him through my own mind and
understanding from a divine knowledge. I mean, there is a cause that
proceeds the effect of loving the object. Just like God creating Adam
and Eve. He did not create Himself, but an image of Himself. So that in
acknowledging the identity of these different corporal entities we are
separating the divine from the image of the divine. This is what makes
God other. Or this is the only cause of us being set apart for usage. We
are not made little Christ , but we are made new in order to be changed
into the image of Christ.
First because He cannot share His
glory with anyone. We could never be divine. But since we have being and
God is other, or eternal being, then our dependence is tied to our
being different than God. And the only way that we can be made into the
image of Christ is through the transforming of our own minds. Well, i
you may need to esplain yourself, but my take on the tri cotomy paradigm
is that the soul and the body are a personal reflection of our identity
but the spirit is Christ undefined and yet in a completed union with us
as if we are Christ. So that there is no difference in the nature of
our identity in the spirit side of our identity.
When we are
saved we retain all of our own faculties so that He makes us righteous
by a foreign righteousness that is , a righteousness that is not our
own, or has any intrinsic ability to make our faculties and our works
acceptable to God. The declaration that we are righteous is a legal
declaration. It is a once for all declaration unto eternity apart from
anything we have in our sanctification. Thats why there is not a
dichotomy in our doing and His working in us. Its not our soul and body
getting in line with our perfect spirits, or having a perfect division
between our responsibility and His responsibility. Cause what we are
talking about here i think, if we apply the doctrine of the will is that
we have on the one side the spirit that represents that perfect life,
and we have on the other side the soul and the body and He wants us to
submit our souls and bodies to Him in order for His perfect spirit to
work it out. But my understanding of what the scripture says is that our
will is determined by our mind choosing what is best. And that we are
not two types of existence in one body. But we are all corrupted since
we are subject to death.
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5888
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: November 15, 2008, 02:15:22 AM
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I understand what you are saying. I was more
talking about the realm of assurance. I believe we can have absolute
assurance that we are saved. But i do not believe this involves getting a
ticket that gives us total ability to be without fear, guilt and hard
hardheartedness. The reason i am having some inconsistencies in agreeing
with you is over our disagreements of the doctrine of man. I mean, if i
am correct you are saying that sin only resides in our bodies while our
spirits are completely whole in Christ. I try to understand things that
people believe before i see where they are led to believe something
about their perception of relationships and the circumstances they find
themselves in , before I get to sense there is total unity of purpose in
a loving fellowship. The Spirit is koinania with us, or He comes along
side of us. How can two have fellowship unless we agree? I am not saying
that we must totally agree with one another about everything.
My
understanding of these things is that within our spirits we have a
mind, will, and emotion. These interact to create our view of ourselves
and the world around us. If there was a tendency to love something other
than Jesus it would involve our spirits as well as our bodies. I do not
believe that the body is the source of the incorporeal reality in our
minds. I know we are having a spat about how the intellect plays a part
in having something that takes the place of our believing His personage
in that reality of knowing Him. I think it involves a mis understanding
of what i believe about how our spirits work according to the scripture.
My understanding of these things is that unless we know something in a
learned sense then we cannot love the object enough to choose to be
loyal. The knowledge involves a taste, or having the component of new
senses so that the knowledge is not just intellectual, but it is
experiential. If there was any other way to produce the affection for an
object, then just like the importance of knowledge, that is
intellectual understanding, it is the same with language. The subject is
acting to an object. The acting or the verb does not come before the
subject. Nor does the object come before the verb. I mean in diagramming
language. And i believe that this could be misrepresented as if having
an experiential knowledge is by passing the subject and just focusing on
the object. I mean language has everything to do with experience.
I
think with this tri cotomy paradigm you are presenting then , there are
some mis understanding of the way that i describe receiving knowledge
and the way i am viewing the object. As well as the direction of all of
life flows, or how we are consciously alive in that reality. Ok my mind
is getting tired so i will probably not say all that i am thinking. I am
digging as deep as i possibly can. I know you think its what is the
problem. Anyway, there is a progression of the human experience that
involves this interior inanimate world. It is the same ordered
progression as the material world. Because the material world is made up
of things that cannot be seen be the human eye, that is that an object
has parts that have a source of power, holding together, and subsisting
that involves the sustaining of all things. And so this involves Gods
thinking first whatever is physically present. Ok later. Thats enough
for me.
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---Kidding but I am having trems tremors so I must hit
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